[B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32
Elizabeth Kline
kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Fri Oct 3 03:02:58 EDT 2008
Bryant,
Thank you for taking the time to give this some serious thought.
I will not have much to say about your translations [1], just a
question or two.
On Oct 2, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
>
>
> 13:31 begins with a statement referring back to verse 30 and the
> departure of
> Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus. Now, begins the statement of Jesus
> regarding His
> glorification. EDOXASQN is used 3x in the next 3 clauses of 13:31-32.
> 31b, NUN EDOXASQN hO hUIOS TOU ANQROPOU, "Now the Son of Man is
> glorified"
> 31c, KAI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi "and God is glorified in Him"
> 32a, [EI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi]**** "If God is glorified in
> Him"
> 32b, KAI hO QEOS DOXASEI AUTON EN AUTWi, "and God has glorified
> Himself in
> Him."
> 32c, KAI EUQUS DOXASEI AUTON. "then immediately [He = God] has
> glorified
> Himself."
>
DOXASEI is a future?
> First, the **** indicates that the manuscripts are pretty much
> divided as this
> clause being part of the text. I will assume, for the sake of
> argument, that it
> is part of the text. For the purpose of clarification I put the
> first clause in
> non-grammatical English form to show the agreement of the
> Christology presented
> by the Greek Text.
>
> Secondly, it is highly unlikely that EDOXASQH (Aorist Passive;
> Middle (?))
> should be translated differently in each of the 3 times used. What
> really helps
> in the timing of this "glorification" is the use of NUN, "Now, at
> this exact
> time."
>
> Third, NUN and EUQUS bracket the entire statement by Jesus. It
> appears that
> Jesus is saying "At this exact time or NOW" and "Immediately, at
> this very
> instance." Thus, pointing to the whole cycle of events that night,
> Jesus says
> His glorifications is occurring at that very moment.
I like your treatment of NUN and EUQUS but is it perhaps just a little
forced? I can't see that the mere departure of Judas is in and of
itself adequate to meet then semantic demands of EDOXASQH. Also we
need to keep in mind that this isn't the first time Jesus has made
this announcement.
JN 12:23 hO DE IHSOUS APOKRINETAI AUTOIS LEGWN: ELHLUQEN hH hWRA hINA
DOXASQHi hO hUIOS TOU ANQRWPOU.
You can't pin the arrival of hH hWRA ... to a particular nanosecond.
It was a process that unfolded over a period of time. In like manner
the EDOXASQH is not instantaneous. I think Judas' departure from the
upper room was a point of crisis in the story, and NUN was used to
highlight this moment, give it added salience.
>
>
****
> Fourth, Jesus' glorification is referring to the oncoming Suffering
> that is
> about to occur. All the incidents of the night leading to His Death
> ARE viewed
> as one event that glorifies Jesus (The Son of Man) and God. It is a
> completed
> past event.
****
This last paragraph is interesting. First you say that X is "about to
occur" which sounds like future reference. Then you say "It is a
completed past event." Do you mean that is presented as a completed
past event, even though from the standpoint of the narration it is a
future event, in other words a proleptic aorist?
I don't have much to argue about. Still think that the "past" temporal
semantic component of the aorist is unnecessary baggage and it would
lighten our load if we got rid of it. I don't expect to win any new
converts on that subject however. :-)
Elizabeth Kline
[1] Translation into English is helpful when preparing sermons but
since the aorist has no English equivalent it actually introduces a
layer of fog into this discussion.
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list