[B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32

Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Fri Oct 3 12:25:52 EDT 2008


Dear Elizabeth,

Thank you for the comments.

Regarding DOXASEI. It is future. My proofreading did not catch the mistake since
I was more concerned about the Aorist. The last two clauses and translation in
13:32 should be changed to reflect that future. I should note that the last
paragraph would be correct since it reflects the whole idea of the
Aorist...Future debate, i.e. that Christ has been glorified and will be
glorified.

Furthermore, with regards to 12:23, DOXASHQHi, being a Aorist Passive
Subjunctive with HINA indicating purpose, is used by Jesus to predict His
crucifixion in the context of the Feast at Mary and Martha's following the
resurrection of Lazarus. It is this context that some Greeks seek to speak with
Jesus (20-21). Jesus makes the statement found in 12:23 as you mentioned above,
but it is at this gathering that Jesus gives up a small prayer in 12:28, PATER
DOXASON SOU TO ONOMA. It is followed by a voice from Heaven, HLQEN OUN FWNH EK
TO OURANOU KAI EDOXASA (Aor Act) KAI PALIN DOXASW (Future Act). This is similar
to 13:31-32.

Finally, you could be correct that NUN and EUQUS could be a little forced. All I
was trying to indicate is that the NUN and EUQUS were adding time elements into
the structure of the passage that needed to be addressed. It is similar to the
NUN and PALIN in 12:27-28 which add to a narrowing of focus to the time element.

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32


> Bryant,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to give this some serious thought.
>
> I will not have much to say about your translations [1], just a
> question or two.
>
> On Oct 2, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > 13:31 begins with a statement referring back to verse 30 and the
> > departure of
> > Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus. Now, begins the statement of Jesus
> > regarding His
> > glorification. EDOXASQN is used 3x in the next 3 clauses of 13:31-32.
> >    31b, NUN EDOXASQN hO hUIOS TOU ANQROPOU, "Now the Son of Man is
> > glorified"
> >    31c, KAI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi "and God is glorified in Him"
> >    32a, [EI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi]**** "If God is glorified in
> > Him"
> >    32b, KAI hO QEOS DOXASEI AUTON EN AUTWi, "and God has glorified
> > Himself in
> > Him."
> >    32c, KAI EUQUS DOXASEI AUTON. "then immediately [He = God] has
> > glorified
> > Himself."
> >
>
> DOXASEI is a future?
>
> > First, the **** indicates that the manuscripts are pretty much
> > divided as this
> > clause being part of the text. I will assume, for the sake of
> > argument, that it
> > is part of the text. For the purpose of clarification I put the
> > first clause in
> > non-grammatical English form to show the agreement of the
> > Christology presented
> > by the Greek Text.
> >
> > Secondly, it is highly unlikely that EDOXASQH (Aorist Passive;
> > Middle (?))
> > should be translated differently in each of the 3 times used. What
> > really helps
> > in the timing of this "glorification" is the use of NUN, "Now, at
> > this exact
> > time."
> >
> > Third, NUN and EUQUS bracket the entire statement by Jesus. It
> > appears that
> > Jesus is saying "At this exact time or NOW" and "Immediately, at
> > this very
> > instance." Thus, pointing to the whole cycle of events that night,
> > Jesus says
> > His glorifications is occurring at that very moment.
>
> I like your treatment of NUN and EUQUS but is it perhaps just a little
> forced? I can't see that the mere departure of Judas is in and of
> itself adequate to meet then semantic demands of EDOXASQH. Also we
> need to keep in mind that this isn't the first time Jesus has made
> this announcement.
>
> JN 12:23 hO DE IHSOUS APOKRINETAI AUTOIS LEGWN: ELHLUQEN hH hWRA hINA
> DOXASQHi hO hUIOS TOU ANQRWPOU.
>
> You can't pin the arrival of hH hWRA ... to a particular nanosecond.
> It was a process that unfolded over a period of time. In like manner
> the EDOXASQH is not instantaneous. I think Judas' departure from the
> upper room was a point of crisis in the story, and NUN was used to
> highlight this moment, give it added salience.
> >
> >
>
> ****
> > Fourth, Jesus' glorification is referring to the oncoming Suffering
> > that is
> > about to occur. All the incidents of the night leading to His Death
> > ARE viewed
> > as one event that glorifies Jesus (The Son of Man) and God. It is a
> > completed
> > past event.
>
> ****
>
> This last paragraph is interesting. First you say that X is "about to
> occur" which sounds like future reference. Then you say "It is a
> completed past event." Do you mean that is presented as a completed
> past event, even though from the standpoint of the narration it is a
> future event, in other words a proleptic aorist?
>
> I don't have much to argue about. Still think that the "past" temporal
> semantic component of the aorist is unnecessary baggage and it would
> lighten our load if we got rid of it. I don't expect to win any new
> converts on that subject however. :-)
>
>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
> [1] Translation into English is helpful when preparing sermons but
> since the aorist has no English equivalent it actually introduces a
> layer of fog into this discussion.
>
>
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