[B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
Donald COBB
docobb at orange.fr
Thu Apr 16 04:42:10 EDT 2009
Sorry, I sent this directly to Mary Sims, and not to B-Greek!
Donald Cobb
- - - - - - - -
Many thanks to Iver Larsen and Mary Sims for their comments. I still have
questions though. My personal inclination also is to connect v. 16 to v. 14.
The similarities in terms of vocabulary invite the connection, and v. 15
seems to break up that tie-in. But in what way does hOTI explicate the
connection?
Iver, it seems to me that the suggestion "because (hOTI) we have received
some of that 'fullness', then we have been able to perceive the greatness of
his glory" goes in a different direction from what the prologue actually
says. I would be more inclined to interpret v. 14b as a reference to the
seeing that is connected to the Word becoming flesh in 14a: "We saw the
glory of the one who put up his tent among us" (the same idea will be picked
up again in 2:11 and elsewhere). KAI ETHEASAMETHA is the logical consequence
of EGENETO and ESKHNWSEN. It's difficult for me to see v. 16 as the
explication or "reason" of v. 14b. It seems more natural to see v. 16 as
that which explains v. 17, which is introduced by its hOTI: "We have
received a fullness of overabundant grace *because* grace and truth have
come about through Jesus Christ". The fact that v. 18 begins with an
asyndeton tends to isolate v. 17 as the culminating point of the preceeding
development, i.e., the reason for the writer's and readers' "receiving
fullness".
So where does that leave the hOTI that begins v. 16? If it's not causal--or
"representational", Mary, if I've correctly understood your terminology in
my rapid perousal of your chapter (many thanks!)--then it seems to be
hanging somewhat loosely. X. Léon-Dufour, in his commentary, translates:
"Yes, from his fullness we have received". Could we then say, along with
Léon-Dufour and Ridderbos, that the clause introduced by hOTI (v. 16)
functions as a summary of what precedes (including perhaps also v. 15)?
Mary, in the quote that you give from Epictetus, page 206, hOTI simply
announces a summary of what follows. Would we be close to BDAG's 4b that
Iver cited ("The subordination is oft. so loose that the transl. for
recommends itself "), i.e., "for" as something so loose that we probably
shouldn't be looking too closely for the logical connection? Somewhat along
those lines, I noticed this entry in M-M under hOTI (4):
hOTI DE TAUTA ALHQHI LEGOI, ESTIN GRAMMATA AUTHS DI' hWN hOMOLOGEI
EILHPENAI.
ὅτι δὲ ταῦτα ἀληθῆι λέγωι, ἔστιν γράμματα αὐτῆς δι' ὧν ὁμολογεῖ εἰληφέναι.
M-M give the following translation: "and in proof that I am telling the
truth, there are the documents in which she admits that she has received
them (wages)". If the hOTI is indeed free-standing here, then it seems close
to Epictetus' chapter heading.
Does anyone know of other examples along these lines? Once again, I would be
most interested in any thoughts or reactions.
Donald Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France
----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Sim" <margaret_sim at sil.org>
To: "Donald COBB" <docobb at orange.fr>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
>
> Donald,
> Greetings from Scotland! I found your comments very interesting and it is
> true as Elizabeth says that 'M.Sim sees it as representational' (i.e.
> hOTI). Also I would agree with Ivor that verse 15 is an 'aside' with the
> hOTI of verse 16 referring back to 14 and supportng what is said there and
> elaborating on the 'grace' metioned there. Verse 17 also begins with hOTI
> but I would suggest that in that context it is introducing a well known
> saying (pure speculation of course) because of the clear parallelism in
> its form. You will have noticed that p66 has DE after XARIS in that verse.
> With reference to the linking of 7:35: I'm not convinced by this. That
> verse is an echo of what Jesus had just said 'you will not find me' and
> hOTI introduces that 'echo'.
> I have been very nervous about commenting to the B-Greek list but I hope
> this may not be completely useless.
>
> Yours,
>
> Margaret Sim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald COBB" <docobb at orange.fr>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 6:41 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Musings over John 1:16
>
>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I've been looking over the Prologue to John's Gospel over the last few
>> days, and keep coming up against the hOTI that opens v. 16 :
>>
>> hOTI EK TOU PLHRWMATOS AUTOU hHMEIS PANTES ELABOMEN KAI CARIN ANTI
>> CARITOS
>>
>> The usual meaning of hΟΤΙ would be "for / because". The textual variant
>> (replacing hOTI with KAI) shows that the construction is difficult, and
>> several commentators suggest looking at v. 15 as an intrusive secondary
>> addition, observing that v. 16 flows much more naturally from v. 14. From
>> the point of view of vocabulary and progression of thought, the point is
>> well taken. It seems to me, however, that even if we connect v. 16
>> directly to v. 14, keeping the meaning as "because", the logical
>> connection still remains problematical.
>>
>> BDAG, under 5,c, gives "so that (as a result)" as a possible function of
>> hOTI, referring to Jn 7:35 as an example:
>>
>> POU hOUTOS MELLEI POREUESQAI hOTI hMEIS OUC hEURHSOMEN AUTON; "...so that
>> we will not find him?"
>>
>> That seems like an interesting option for 1:16, with the result that v.
>> 16 then opens up a new thought, building on v. 15 (or directly on v. 14
>> or even the two verses together, thus, e.g., Ridderbos). The difficulty,
>> as I see it, is that the only examples given use hHOTI to open an
>> apodosis. My question, then, is twofold: firstly, can hOTI bear this
>> meaning at the beginning of a new clause, and not merely in an apodosis?
>> Secondly, does anyone have examples of such a usage elsewhere in Koine
>> Greek, inside or outide the NT?
>>
>> Any other suggestions for translation? Thanks in advance for your input.
>>
>>
>> Donald Cobb
>> Aix-en-Provence, France
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
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>
>
>
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