[B-Greek] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 7 18:53:32 EST 2009
I guess I should purchase a copy of Wallace’s book, so I can see the rest of his reasoning. Robertson refers to Luke 8:49 in his grammar.
ETI AUTOU LALOUNTOS ERCETAI TIS PARA TOU ARCISUNAGWYOU LEGWN AUTW OTI TEQNHKEN H QUGATHP SOU MH SKULLE TON DIDASKALON.
Here the person is told to stop troubling the Master. It does seem the present imperative is confined to the immediate action of the verb. In other words, the present imperative is not forbidding the ruler of the synagogue to once again trouble the Master, if the need arose, but is speaking of the present action coming to a stop. But would it be possible for a present imperative to give the idea “you should not be troubling the Master?” This would then imply, perhaps, (indirectly) the person should not have been troubling the Master in the first place. In other words, such troubling should not have been done then, or in the future…or am I looking too closely to the trees and not seeing the forest? I know it is easy to do sometimes in Greek, (thus the urban legends).
B.Harris
P.S. I know this is a silly example. Of course, the gospel would not be telling someone not to ever come to Jesus with such a problem, but I am using this verse because the action is not negative in and of itself and thereby might better demonstrate the question I have. Does the present carry the linear action into the prohibition, or does it only refer the original setting of the activity in which the prohibition is given.
________________________________
From: Michael Lawson <dikaiosune_7 at msn.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 2:51:37 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1
Blue,
I quote from Daniel B. Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics", page 717, ""In sum, the basic force of the aorist in commands/prohibitions is that it views the action as a whole, while the basic force of the present in commands/prohibitions is that it views the action as ongoing process. This basic meaning may, of course, be shaped in a given context to fit, say, an ingressive idea for the aorist. Thus if the conditions are right, the aorist prohibition may well have the force of "Do not start." This is an affected meaning or specific usage. But to call this the essential idea is not correct.""
Note: Words in italics are Wallace's.
Michael Lawson
----- Original Message -----
>From: Blue Meeksbay
>To: Eddie Mishoe
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 5:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1
>
>I AM SORRY, I FORGOT TO CC: TO THE LIST, SO I AM SENDING IT AGIAN
>
>Hello Eddie -
>
>So when it comes to the imperative mood used in negative situations, the tense does not change the parameters of the verbal injunction? In other words, the aorist imperative would have been just as appropriate in this context? (Assuming the Lord was referring to a person who was always making judgments of other people, not someone who was contemplating judging someone). And, if the answer is yes, what would be the main distinction between the two tenses?
>
>B.Harris
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 1:38:28 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1
>
>
>B. Harris
>
>Both uses of the Imperative mean to stop X if you are doing it and to not do X if you are contemplating it. That much we know.
>
>Eddie Mishoe
>
>--- On Mon, 12/7/09, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: [B-Greek] Present imperative in Matt. 7:1
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 3:06 PM
>>
>>
>>Knowing that in negative situations, generally the aorist imperative seeks to stop an act before it occurs, and the present imperative seeks to stop an act from continuing, or to stop an act that is occurring, does the present imperative in Matt. 7:1 MH KRINETE INA MH KRIQHTE equate to “Stop judging, so that you might not be judged, or “Don’t be judging all the time, so that you will not be judged? It does not seem to be the former because in verse 5 a judgment is still made after the removal of one’s own log in one’s own eye. Is the idea behind this verse - do not be known as critical person, or do not act as a judge at all?
>>
>>I know sometimes with our analysis of Greek one might miss the forest for the trees, but sometimes it seems we can miss the trees because of the forest. Any thoughts?
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>B.Harris
>>
>>
>>
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