[B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Leonard Isaksson
leonardo1orchardcity at mac.com
Wed Dec 9 17:53:08 EST 2009
An interesting and thoughtful post you have here, glad you put it up.
I will have to look at Towner's commentary.
Apparently some people on Crete had a change of heart, to turn to the
Gospel.
Is not there also reference in the neighbouring verses to some of the
'circumcision' in particular, who are later exhorted to not give heed
to Jewish fables and commandments of men, a strong concern of Paul's?
There must have been 'vain talkers' of several backgrounds on Crete.
Leonard Isaksson
On Dec 9, 2009, at 8:16 AM, yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Can the reel Paul, or, in this case, the writer of the letter to
> Titus, tell a joke? Can he pose a conundrum? Can he speak with irony?
> He says:
>
> εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης·
> Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί.
> ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως,
> ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει,
> EIPEN TIS EX AUTWN IDIOS AUTWN PROFHTHS—
> KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI, KAKA QHRIA, GASTERES ARGAI.
> hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS. DI hHN AITIAN ELEGCE AUTOUS APOTOMWS,
> hHINA hUGIAINWSIN EN THi PISTEI
>
> Check out Phil Towner's comments on this verse in his commentary on
> the Pastorals. The figure of irony here is neither philosophical nor
> contentious. The author refers it to a PROFHTHS, but also says it
> himself, but with an attitude or sly voice distinct from that of the
> original saying. I would say that one of the greatest hindrances to
> reading Greek is the failure of imagination. Can they do that in the
> Greek New Testament???? Of course. Even the use of the word PROFHTHS
> is verbal irony. The statement that "Cretans are always liars, etc.
> ..." was an old saw, and especially "true" with regard to religious
> matters, because, as is fairly well recognized, Cretans appear to have
> spouted the idea that Zeus was born on Crete and his tomb is there
> too. Such ethnic humor as the reel Paul here uses was a way of
> characterizing ethnicity and claiming identity in a contentious
> culture. The writer of Titus siezes upon popular a popular sentiment
> to encourage Titus. Hey, even Cretans are not beyond the reach of
> redemption. You may have to sharply confront them, but they can
> hHUGIAINEIN EN THi PISTEI with the best of them. The greater issue, is
> of course, what is the writer doing with these words? Here we might
> remind ourselves of JL Austin, "How to Do Things with Words" who
> begins with this: “What I shall have to say here is neither difficult
> nor contentious; the only merit I should like to claim for it is that
> of being true, at least in parts.”
>
> Yancy Smith
> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
> yancy at wbtc.com
> 5636 Wedgworth Road
> Fort Worth, TX 76133
> 817-361-7565
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:05 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> I hardly think this was written to pose a logical conundrum.
>
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