[B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 10 09:11:32 EST 2009
For what it is worth, it seems, without an interrogative particle, the only way to determine if it is a rhetorical question would be the context, and it does not seem the context warrants such a conclusion, at least, from my perspective.
I know that there are others on the list that are better qualified to answer this question, perhaps, they might respond.
As far as your other question, it seems the whole chapter is about character. Paul is telling Titus that good character (those men appointed elders) is needed in order to bring stability to churches that are being influenced by bad character (false Cretan teachers, i.e. non-Jews, and those of the circumcision party, vs. 10). The circumcision party is trying to bring stability to the Cretans of bad character (vs. 12) by their own Jewish fables (stories meant to teach righteousness) and commandments of men (external regulations meant to impose righteousness). Paul seeks to expose this false righteousness (because he believes they are really hypocritical and also of bad character, vs. 16; also cf. Rom. 2:17-29), by the appointment of elders of good character, who will be able to teach the truth and lead lives of good examples. Paul is familiar with the true character of the circumcision party and their fables and commandments because Paul was once a part of
the very root that produced such a party – the sect of the Pharisees. Paul does not believe that path will really lead to the desired righteousness and so he is opposing it.
Sincerely,B.Harris
________________________________
From: Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 4:27:11 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Titus 1:12-13
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Yancy -
>
> Are you saying then, that Paul's affirmation hH MARTURIA hAUTH ESTIN ALHQHS might also be a bit of irony, because Paul is agreeing that they are lying, because Paul does not believe Zeus is buried in Crete, simply, because Paul does not believe Zeus is real? So that, in English it would be better to translate it, "This testimony is true! (using an exclamation point rather than a period)
>
> B.Harris
>
>
Of course, it is to be taken something of exclamation. My initial
question was "When I take it as an interrogative (a rhetoric question
which has an implicit answer), is it allowed in Greek grammar-syntax?"
The reason I have brought this topic is that, not much of
understanding the quotation, its background, and Paul's taking it, but
rather a difficulty of connecting vv. 12-13a to the subsequent v. 13b.
(I don't have any commentaries to shed light on this verse.)
So far, the following is my reading and understanding of the text:
1:12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own [Cretan] prophets, said,
<[We] Cretans are always liars;
wild beasts, lazy bellies.>
1:13 In such testimonial coming from out of their own mouth
don’t we hear something of a true saying?!
[The words in bracket are mine.]
These verses do not seem function to focus on the character of Cretans
per se, but function as an opening for the admonition against the
Judaizers, which follows in vv. 13b-14:
The Cretan prophet himself does honestly say they can lie, "we Cretans
are always liars". (Here, reading it as 'we Cretans', not just
'Cretans', do make the nuance of the text clear.) Then, be it known
that the Judaizers do likewise lie. So, rebuke them; don't pay
attention to them, etc.
Oun Kwon..
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