[B-Greek] HKW - perfect with present meaning
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Sat Dec 12 10:48:58 EST 2009
Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>That must surely be a typo. I say this because he says the pres. = pf. and then adds, hence impf = plpf, which means he just dropped one level on both the Pres > >(down one level to the Impf) and Pf (down one level to the plpf).
Carl Conrad wrote:
>I think that Abbot-Smith simply goofed and meant to say "present with perfect meaning.." That certainly is what is implied by the parenthetical addition "(hence >imperfect= pluperfect)." There really are errors in textbooks, you know.
I know this may be a rabbit trail, because, as Carl Conrad said, this more than likely was a goof, (also because of Eddie’s observation), so if no one wants to respond to this that is fine...but where did our classifications first come from for various Greek verbs? I believe an earlier post by Stephan Baldwin mentioned that Oxford started a Greek course in 1462. Were all verbs simply classified by the inflections? Did they never classify them by usage? Certainly, a Greek child in the first century would not classify verbs in their mind by their inflections, but more than likely, by usage??? That is presupposing they were illiterate and, thus, did not learn language by lessons, but simply by speaking. I am talking about the average person; perhaps, such language lessons were given among Greek children of the wealthy, in which case, perhaps, lessons were developed by the classifications of the inflections???
I mentioned Robertson classified hHKW as a perfective. I did not find that classification in many grammars. Blass does not use it, but he does say this:
HKEIV: 3rd plur. hHKASIN mc. 8.3 Aleph AND (al. hHKOUSIN b. EISIN) cp. Clem. i. 12. 2. The transition of this verb of perfect meaning to the inflection of the perfect tense is found also in LXX and other late writings. W. Schm. Section 13, 2 Kuhner I, ii 438: W. Schmidt Jos. elocut 470.”
Perhaps, this post is not even worth the time it would take to respond, but this “misprint” fascinated me, and just made me wonder about classifications.
In other words, (without taking into account Eddie's observation, which seem to clinch it) would anyone have ever classified hHKW as a “perfect with present form,” not based upon inflection but upon usage?
With best regards,
B.Harris
P.S. If you go to this link of Google books and choose the “second” selection of the “Grammar of New Testament Greek,” by Blass, you will find it apparently was G. Abbott-Smith’s actually book! It has his signature and is dated April 28, 1903. http://books.google.com/books?q=editions:0u0yxCtM3rB-tg&id=ie4UAAAAYAAJ
P.P.S. You will have to actually scroll up first to get to the digitalized copy of the cover and then scroll down a few pages. (Probably only one interested in history will actually do this!) (Sorry for this “frivolous” information :)
________________________________
From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 4:58:46 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] HKW - perfect with present meaning
I think that Abbot-Smith simply goofed and meant to say "present with perfect meaning." That certainly is what is implied by the parenthetical addition "(hence imperfect= pluperfect)." There really are errors in textbooks, you know.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (ret)
On Friday, December 11, 2009, at 05:10PM, "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>I found Robertson called hHKW a "perfective," (pg.. 869) and in his index he called it "perf. sense but pres. form" (pg. 1265). Do you suppose they used to call it a "perfect" since it was used as a perfect and the mistake was using the word "meaning" rather than using the word "form?"
>
>Regards,
>B.Harris
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 12:44:00 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] HKW - perfect with present meaning
>
>
>Blue
>
>That must surely be a typo. I say this because he says the pres. = pf. and then adds, hence impf = plpf, which means he just dropped one level on both the Pres (down one level to the Impf) and Pf (down one level to the plpf).
>
>Eddie Mishoe
>
>--- On Fri, 12/11/09, Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] HKW - perfect with present meaning
>>To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Date: Friday, December 11, 2009, 2:24 PM
>>
>>
>>Yes, I checked again, it says "perfect," abbreviated pf. — I will try to write it out, (although I do not know how I would transliterate Hebrew, so I will spell out the letters).
>>
>>“HKW, [in LXX chiefly for "aleph, vav, bet";] pf. with pres. meaning (hence impf.=plpf.), to have come, be present: Mt. 24:50, Mk 8:3 (late pf., HKA, v. Swete, in 1.: WH, App., 169), Lk 12:46, 15:27, Jn. 8:42, He 10:7,9,27, I Jo 5:20 etc.”
>>
>>I stopped there, and did not quote the rest. WH is his abbreviation for Westcott and Hort, I am not sure what App., 169 is, but it is in italics. The quote is on page 198 of the Third edition, reprinted in 1968, T & T Clark, Edinburgh)
>>
>>Regards,
>>B.Harris
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 10:54:47 AM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] HKW - perfect with present meaning
>>
>>
>>On Friday, December 11, 2009, at 01:42PM, "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>Forgive my ignorance, but any idea why Abbott-Smith would say concerning HKW "perfect with present meaning (hence imperfect= pluperfect)"
>>
>>I dunno. Are you sure it doesn't say, "present with perfect meaning"? If not, that's what it should say.
>>hHKW has a counterpart in ERRW or ERREI (I don't think I've ever seen it in the first person).
>>hHKEI = "he/she/it has arrived" ERREI "he/she/it is gone."
>>
>>C. W. Conrad
>>
>>
>>
>>
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