[B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
Albert Pietersma
albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Fri Dec 18 16:10:39 EST 2009
So it matters not that in the one passage we have a verb and its
complement and in the other the other we have a substantive and its
suffix? In spite of that difference, you would claim that Num 14.11
proves that MOU in Hab 2.4b cannot be read as an objective genitive?
As for your second point, you are apparently of the view that only an
author or a translator can validate what a text can mean. I guess we
belong to different schools of hermeneutics, but that is a topic for
another list.
Al
On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:49 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> Yes, I am. That is the way the Hebrew expressed having trust in
> another. Whether the text is tolerant of two differing
> interpretations depends on whether one wishes to follow the standard
> sytax or to conjecture regarding possibilities.
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>; b-
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org; "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 1:15:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>
> You are not seriously suggesting, are you, George, that the Greek of
> Num 14.11 has interpretive bearing on Hab 2.4b?
> Furthermore, I don't know how one determines what "the translators
> were well aware of" except from the text they left us. And the text
> they/he left us in Hab 2.4b is tolerant of two interpretations, one
> which can, with reasonable certainty, be attributed to the
> translator, and another one which might justifiably be attributed to
> it by reception history. Both have equal validity, though they
> differ in logical and historical precedence.
> Incidentally, to focus exclusively on a possible misreading of YOD
> for WAW in the phrase under discussion ignores other discrepancies
> between MT and LXX in the context. But, as others have already
> noted, the source text is not at issue.
> Al
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:18 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> There are a few things of which we are reasonably sure. One of
>> these is that the translators of the LXX tended to translate rather
>> literally. The difference between "my faith" and "his faith" is
>> the difference between reading a waw or a yod in the Hebrew.
>> Another secure fact is that the pronominal suffix of the Massoretic
>> text at this point being a waw is in some scripts little different
>> from the yod. It therefore seems most likely that the waw was
>> confused for a waw. There is a passage in the MT which speaks of
>> having faith in God
>>
>> וְעַד־אָנָה לֹא־יַאֲמִינוּ בִיἕως
>> τίνος οὐ πιστεύουσίν μοι
>> hEWS TINOS PISTEUOUSIN MOI
>> (Num 14.11)
>>
>> "How long will they not have faith in me?"
>>
>> Note that this is not expressed by a pronominal suffix but rather
>> by a preposition with the pronominal suffix. I'm sure that the
>> translators were well aware of this and would not have translated
>> it so as to imply that they would have understood ἐκ
>> πίστεώς μου EK PISTEWS MOU as "faith in me" (or "believing
>> me").
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 11:52:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>>
>> To answer your question simply and straightforwardly, Eric, I
>> believe it is
>> pretty certain that an objective genitive is possible here. Of
>> course, it is
>> another question whether it is probable.
>>
>> God bless,
>>
>> Brian Abasciano
>>
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:01:17 -0800 (PST)
>>> From: "Eric S. Weiss" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>>> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Message-ID: <521485.19175.qm at web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>> AMBAKOUM 2:4b: hO DE DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS MOU ZHSETAI
>>> ?
>>> Both Brenton and NETS translate this as: "but the just shall live
>>> by my
>>> faith" (NETS notes
>>> "Or faithfulness").
>>> ?
>>> Is it possible for?MOU to not be?a possessive genitive, but an
>>> objective
>>> genitive - i.e., "but
>>> the just [man/person] shall live by/because-of?his faith in Me"?
>>> ?
>>> - - -
>>> Eric S. Weiss
>>> ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
> —
> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>
>
—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
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