[B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Dec 18 19:16:42 EST 2009
No, it really doesn't matter that one is a verb and its complement while the other is a substantive and its suffix (in Hebrew) since according to Eric's proposal in Greek it would be an objective gen which would therefore resolve to "shall live by believing in me" (or "by believing me"?). It therefore becomes verbal in nature. I do not find πιστεύω PISTEUW + gen pron except in Rom 10.14 πῶς δὲ πιστεύσωσιν οὗ οὐκ ἤκουσαν PWS DE PISTEUSWSIN hOU OUK HKOUSAN. There the gen appears to go with ἀκούω AKOUW and not πιστεύω PISTEUW.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 2:10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
So it matters not that in the one passage we have a verb and its complement and in the other the other we have a substantive and its suffix? In spite of that difference, you would claim that Num 14.11 proves that MOU in Hab 2.4b cannot be read as an objective genitive?
As for your second point, you are apparently of the view that only an author or a translator can validate what a text can mean. I guess we belong to different schools of hermeneutics, but that is a topic for another list.
Al
On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:49 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> Yes, I am. That is the way the Hebrew expressed having trust in another. Whether the text is tolerant of two differing interpretations depends on whether one wishes to follow the standard sytax or to conjecture regarding possibilities.
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 1:15:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>
> You are not seriously suggesting, are you, George, that the Greek of Num 14.11 has interpretive bearing on Hab 2.4b?
> Furthermore, I don't know how one determines what "the translators were well aware of" except from the text they left us. And the text they/he left us in Hab 2.4b is tolerant of two interpretations, one which can, with reasonable certainty, be attributed to the translator, and another one which might justifiably be attributed to it by reception history. Both have equal validity, though they differ in logical and historical precedence.
> Incidentally, to focus exclusively on a possible misreading of YOD for WAW in the phrase under discussion ignores other discrepancies between MT and LXX in the context. But, as others have already noted, the source text is not at issue.
> Al
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:18 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> There are a few things of which we are reasonably sure. One of these is that the translators of the LXX tended to translate rather literally. The difference between "my faith" and "his faith" is the difference between reading a waw or a yod in the Hebrew. Another secure fact is that the pronominal suffix of the Massoretic text at this point being a waw is in some scripts little different from the yod. It therefore seems most likely that the waw was confused for a waw. There is a passage in the MT which speaks of having faith in God
>>
>> וְעַד־אָנָה לֹא־יַאֲמִינוּ בִיἕως τίνος οὐ πιστεύουσίν μοι
>> hEWS TINOS PISTEUOUSIN MOI
>> (Num 14.11)
>>
>> "How long will they not have faith in me?"
>>
>> Note that this is not expressed by a pronominal suffix but rather by a preposition with the pronominal suffix. I'm sure that the translators were well aware of this and would not have translated it so as to imply that they would have understood ἐκ πίστεώς μου EK PISTEWS MOU as "faith in me" (or "believing me").
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Brian Abasciano <bvabasciano at gmail.com>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; "Weiss, Eric" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Fri, December 18, 2009 11:52:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>>
>> To answer your question simply and straightforwardly, Eric, I believe it is
>> pretty certain that an objective genitive is possible here. Of course, it is
>> another question whether it is probable.
>>
>> God bless,
>>
>> Brian Abasciano
>>
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:01:17 -0800 (PST)
>>> From: "Eric S. Weiss" <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Habbakuk 2:4b - objective genitive?
>>> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Message-ID: <521485.19175.qm at web65609.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>>
>>> AMBAKOUM 2:4b: hO DE DIKAIOS EK PISTEWS MOU ZHSETAI
>>> ?
>>> Both Brenton and NETS translate this as: "but the just shall live by my
>>> faith" (NETS notes
>>> "Or faithfulness").
>>> ?
>>> Is it possible for?MOU to not be?a possessive genitive, but an objective
>>> genitive - i.e., "but
>>> the just [man/person] shall live by/because-of?his faith in Me"?
>>> ?
>>> - - -
>>> Eric S. Weiss
>>> ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>
> —
> Albert Pietersma PhD
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> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
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>
—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
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