[B-Greek] Did the shepherds believe? Luke 2:15
Rod Rogers
rngrogers at embarqmail.com
Tue Dec 22 13:37:47 EST 2009
I agree with Marilyn and her "two things"
that show the shepherds believed. I only
would add, that to me, the perfect use of
GINOMAI indicates an emphesis on "had"
happened. As has been stated, the subjunctive
use of the verbs is hortative. What, I
believe, the shepherds said was, "Let us go
and see this fulfilled anouncement which the
Lord made known unto us", keeping in mind
that this announcement was made by the "angel
of the Lord" and not the multitude of angels.
Rod Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: Marilyn Phemister
To: B-Greek
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Did the shepherds
believe? Luke 2:15
Luke 2:15 b Διέλθωμεν δὴ ἕως Βηθλέεμ καὶ
ἴδωμεν τὸ ῥῆμα τοῦτο τὸ γεγονὸς
ὃ ὁ κύριος ἐγνώρισεν ἡμῖν.
DIELQWMEN DH hEWS BHQLEEM KAI IDWMEN TO RHMA
TOUTO TO GEGONOS hO hO
KURIOS EGNWRISEN hHMIN.
Jay, in your transliteration below you left
out the TO before GEGONOS.
That seems to make a difference to me. I'm
nervous about sticking out
my neck to respond to this, but it would seem
to me that there are two
things which indicate that the shepherds
believed. First is that they
called it TO RHMA TOUTO TO GEGONOS, this
thing which has happened.
Then they called it hO hO KURIOS EGNWRISEN
hHMIN, which the Lord has
made known to us. First, it seems they
acknowledged that it happened,
then they identified hO KURIOS as their
source of information.
I'll be interested in what some of the more
learned B-Greekers have to say.
Marilyn Phemister
Jay Adkins wrote:
> Dear BGreek,
>
> Luke 2:15b DIELQWMEN DH EWS BHQLEEM KAI
> IDWMEN TO RHMA TOUTO YEYOVOS O hO
> KURIOS EGNWRISEN HMIN
>
> �Let us go now to Bethlehem that we might
> see [if] this saying has happened
> which the Lord has made known to us.�
>
> �Let us go now to Bethlehem and see this
> thing that has happened which the
> Lord has made known to us.�
>
> When I first translated I thought to add
> the �[if]� into the words of the
> shepherds. I did this due to the
> subjunctive of both verbs. Since,
> however, I found no support from other
> translations, I removed it. And then
> I change the term �saying� to �thing� and
> also removed �that we might�
> replacing it with �and� so as to make a
> smoother English phrase and to agree
> with the other translations. Now I
> understand that the subjunctive can be
> used for an imperative instead of potential
> action. My question is what key
> in the context is there here that I missed?
> How do we know for sure that
> the shepherds believed the word of the
> angels or were in some doubt and
> needed proof? Secondly, in a construct
> such as this one, can one
> subjunctive be used as an imperative and
> the other as a more normal
> subjunctive? I had no problem
> understanding from the context the first
> verb
> was to be used as an imperative. Should
> that have been enough to understand
> the second verb was also being used as an
> imperative?
>
> Once again let me thank all those who might
> respond and those responsible
> for this web site. It is such a blessing
> to be able to ask and learn from
> others.
>
> Merry Christmas to all.
>
> Sola Gratia
> jay adkins
> ---
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>
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