[B-Greek] Pronunciation

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sun Dec 27 16:07:05 EST 2009


Vacile wrote:
 
<Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA
 to an O if I did so is by „mistake” („mistake” against
 what I consider to be standard), because my intention
 has always been to pronounce ETA like a double length
 E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way,
 could you please give me some examples of such
 occurrences? Honestly, I replayed the files and
 cannot find that; it might be that I have become
 so used with my own „mistakes” that I cannot recognize them anymore...>
 
Hi Vacile,
 
I did call and do not consider this a mistake, because
again, this is what Rico (sometimes) does and what 
(some) of his readers (sometimes) do.  I ask why only
because I'm honestly curious about this shift.  Maybe it
is something Modern Greeks (sometimes) do without
even thinking about it.  Americans do something similar
with epsilon.  We tend to pronounce it usually like a short
e as in "pet," but sometimes we lengthen it to ay as in
"clay" in final open syllables.  Thus many, if not most, Americans
will pronounce εχετε ECETE as "exetay," not "exete."  Now
(a) this does not make a lot of sense and (b) I don't know and 
I'm not sure I really care why we do this.  Phemister usually
does this, I think.  So I guess I should not really care why you and
Rico do something similar with HTA.  We apply, I guess, a different
set of standards when listening to Koine.  I guess if I got a recording
of an American speaking English I would notice all sorts of oddities
which are not really worth analyzing.
 
But anyway, for what it is worth, in  John 3:6 you pronounce
the THS in εκ της σαρκος as ek tes, not ek tays, and I think in
ουρανον in John 3:13. the alpha and the omega sound alike, an
example of what Buth calls "North American Astartism."
 
But again, this is not a criticism.  Since my post yesterday I have
listened to your Genesis a bunch of times and I really like it. The
simple word order, based of course on the Hebrew, makes the OT
maybe a better source of audio than can be easily internalized
than the NT.
 
Keep it up. 


Mark L


FWSFOROS MARKOS

--- On Sun, 12/27/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:


From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, AJB1212 at ono.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:28 AM


Mark,

Thanks for your comments. Characterizing this system as being essentially Erasmian is correct, I guess, because this was the system I came accross with and used when I first started to study Greek. In the meantime however, I tried to adapt it to whatever seemed to be more in line with such requirements as fluency, compatibility with modern Greek sounds, consistency with the limitations set by grammar and accentuation, etc. At this moment, I would define it as a systems that employs actual modern Greek phonetics, to the extent that grammatical forms and accentuation rules are not affected. The Erasmian principles are appealed to when the application of modern Greek phonetics produces confusions that are, in my opinion, important.

The Erasmian system applies here mainly (and probably solely) in relation with the vowels η/H, υ/U and ω/W and the diphtongs. And I think this should not be considered too much in violation of the actual Greek phonetics, because probably there was a time when these letters were pronounced as such (even though not all of them in the same period of time; what I mean to say is that they are not entirely „non-Greek”).

(If you noticed that sometimes I pronounce AU as AF/AV, etc., this happens only in relation with modern Greek. I adeed some parallels with modern Greek (for the explanations given for each letter and a sample text audio recording) for the purpose of having a ready comparison. The audio file for 1John 1:1-7 is in fact the respective text in modern Greek, pronounced by modern Greek phonetic rules – at least, this was my intention...).

Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA to an O if I did so is by „mistake” („mistake” against what I consider to be standard), because my intention has always been to pronounce ETA like a double lenght E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way, could you please give me some examples of such occurences? Honestly, I replayed the files and cannot find that; it might be that I have become so used with my own „mistakes” that I cannot recognize them anymore...

As for accentuation, I have tried to always strictly obey the rules. Some time ago I composed a short material to explain the way I understand to practically apply the accentuation rules in pronounciation. See, if you will, http://greaca-veche.xhost.ro/accent.pdf.

Vasile

From: Mark Lightman [mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:54 PM
To: 'A. J. Birch'; 'B-Greek'; Vasile STANCU
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation

Hi Vasile,

I found your site and the audio samples to be interesting, helpful,
and KALA.  I would characterize your system as essentially
Erasmian with a few concessions to MG (B-V, AU-af.)  As a result
I find your samples easier to understand and internalize than Buth or
MG, but maybe a little smoother, more flowing than say Phemister, though again
she remains my favorite as she is still the easiest for me to understand and like
you I have abandoned the standard of what is 'authentic," "natural"
or even "pleasing."

I note that you, like Rico, appear to shorten HTA to an e as in
"pet" in closed syllables, and you, as he does, sometimes do
this with omicron, "aw" as in "law" in at least some closed syllables.
I'm not going to criticize this as I never criticize anything having
to do with pronunciation, but I do wonder why you choose to do this.
It does lead to more homophones, which I continue to maintain are
the enemy of comprehension, though enemies which can be overcome.

I did not notice you differing from the standard accentuation
as it is taught in ancient Greek.  Have I missed something?

Bottom line is that I have added your samples to my MP3 player
and I thank you for them.  The dirty little secret of pronunciation is
that everyone would choose to do it a little differently, which is
another reason to avoid dogmaticsm on this issue.  I like what you
have come up with.  

Mark L


FWSFOROS MARKOS

--- On Thu, 12/24/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:

From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
To: "'A. J. Birch'" <AJB1212 at ono.com>, "'B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 4:41 AM
Recently I have learned to abstain from declaring a certain system to be
better than another, let alone the idea of correctness. However, I would
like to share with you the way I understand to pronounce ancient Greek. This
is not the result of a rigorous research; rather, it is intended to be a
practical attempt to accomodate the sounds that I hear with today's Greek,
and the limitations set by the accentuation system and grammatical forms,
which should not be confused with each other, I believe, for the sake of
complying with one pronounciation system or another.

I have been long looking for a native Greek speaker who proposes a
pronounciation system other than modern Greek, but I believe there is no
such thing available for the time being.

There is a description of the pronounciation system that I am currently
using at this address: http://referinte-greaca.xhost.ro/index-en.htm. In the
same material I have placed some audio samples recorded by myself: Genesis
1:1-2:3 (ancient Greek), John 3:1-16 (ancient Greek) and 1John 1:1-7 (modern
Greek).

Vasile Stancu

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of A. J. Birch
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:18 AM
To: B-Greek
Subject: [B-Greek] Pronunciation

Dear 'B-Greekers',

Nikolaos Adamou wrote,
"There is another audio with more attention to the accents in:
http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/
http://www.helding.net/greeklatinaudio/greek/matthew/MAT01G.mp3
Although the voice is still not natural..."

In an effort to move from the Erasmian pronunciation that I was 'brought up
on' to something more like 'real Greek', I've been listening to the John
Simon recordings and adapting my pronunciation to his. What do those of you
who know more about this than I do think of the Simon recordings - his
pronunciation, etc.? Is there something better 'out there'?

Thankyou,

Andrew J. Birch
Palma de Mallorca, Spain
---
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