[B-Greek] Pronunciation

Nikolaos Adamou nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com
Sun Dec 27 20:15:56 EST 2009


http://www.apostolicbible.com/seminars/pronunciationseminar.mov

This is an other example.
I agree with Μάρκο for his comment on the ETA.
Interesting points from the PDF that Vasile posted.
There are some issues with the words of the MP3 files.
I will make comments when I get to up state NY soon.




> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:07:05 -0800
> From: lightmanmark at yahoo.com
> To: AJB1212 at ono.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> 
> Vacile wrote:
>  
> <Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA
>  to an O if I did so is by "mistake" ("mistake" against
>  what I consider to be standard), because my intention
>  has always been to pronounce ETA like a double length
>  E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way,
>  could you please give me some examples of such
>  occurrences? Honestly, I replayed the files and
>  cannot find that; it might be that I have become
>  so used with my own "mistakes" that I cannot recognize them anymore...>
>  
> Hi Vacile,
>  
> I did call and do not consider this a mistake, because
> again, this is what Rico (sometimes) does and what 
> (some) of his readers (sometimes) do.  I ask why only
> because I'm honestly curious about this shift.  Maybe it
> is something Modern Greeks (sometimes) do without
> even thinking about it.  Americans do something similar
> with epsilon.  We tend to pronounce it usually like a short
> e as in "pet," but sometimes we lengthen it to ay as in
> "clay" in final open syllables.  Thus many, if not most, Americans
> will pronounce εχετε ECETE as "exetay," not "exete."  Now
> (a) this does not make a lot of sense and (b) I don't know and 
> I'm not sure I really care why we do this.  Phemister usually
> does this, I think.  So I guess I should not really care why you and
> Rico do something similar with HTA.  We apply, I guess, a different
> set of standards when listening to Koine.  I guess if I got a recording
> of an American speaking English I would notice all sorts of oddities
> which are not really worth analyzing.
>  
> But anyway, for what it is worth, in  John 3:6 you pronounce
> the THS in εκ της σαρκος as ek tes, not ek tays, and I think in
> ουρανον in John 3:13. the alpha and the omega sound alike, an
> example of what Buth calls "North American Astartism."
>  
> But again, this is not a criticism.  Since my post yesterday I have
> listened to your Genesis a bunch of times and I really like it. The
> simple word order, based of course on the Hebrew, makes the OT
> maybe a better source of audio than can be easily internalized
> than the NT.
>  
> Keep it up. 
> 
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
> 
> --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, AJB1212 at ono.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:28 AM
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Thanks for your comments. Characterizing this system as being essentially Erasmian is correct, I guess, because this was the system I came accross with and used when I first started to study Greek. In the meantime however, I tried to adapt it to whatever seemed to be more in line with such requirements as fluency, compatibility with modern Greek sounds, consistency with the limitations set by grammar and accentuation, etc. At this moment, I would define it as a systems that employs actual modern Greek phonetics, to the extent that grammatical forms and accentuation rules are not affected. The Erasmian principles are appealed to when the application of modern Greek phonetics produces confusions that are, in my opinion, important.
> 
> The Erasmian system applies here mainly (and probably solely) in relation with the vowels η/H, υ/U and ω/W and the diphtongs. And I think this should not be considered too much in violation of the actual Greek phonetics, because probably there was a time when these letters were pronounced as such (even though not all of them in the same period of time; what I mean to say is that they are not entirely "non-Greek").
> 
> (If you noticed that sometimes I pronounce AU as AF/AV, etc., this happens only in relation with modern Greek. I adeed some parallels with modern Greek (for the explanations given for each letter and a sample text audio recording) for the purpose of having a ready comparison. The audio file for 1John 1:1-7 is in fact the respective text in modern Greek, pronounced by modern Greek phonetic rules - at least, this was my intention...).
> 
> Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA to an O if I did so is by "mistake" ("mistake" against what I consider to be standard), because my intention has always been to pronounce ETA like a double lenght E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way, could you please give me some examples of such occurences? Honestly, I replayed the files and cannot find that; it might be that I have become so used with my own "mistakes" that I cannot recognize them anymore...
> 
> As for accentuation, I have tried to always strictly obey the rules. Some time ago I composed a short material to explain the way I understand to practically apply the accentuation rules in pronounciation. See, if you will, http://greaca-veche.xhost.ro/accent.pdf.
> 
> Vasile
> 
> From: Mark Lightman [mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:54 PM
> To: 'A. J. Birch'; 'B-Greek'; Vasile STANCU
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> 
> Hi Vasile,
> 
> I found your site and the audio samples to be interesting, helpful,
> and KALA.  I would characterize your system as essentially
> Erasmian with a few concessions to MG (B-V, AU-af.)  As a result
> I find your samples easier to understand and internalize than Buth or
> MG, but maybe a little smoother, more flowing than say Phemister, though again
> she remains my favorite as she is still the easiest for me to understand and like
> you I have abandoned the standard of what is 'authentic," "natural"
> or even "pleasing."
> 
> I note that you, like Rico, appear to shorten HTA to an e as in
> "pet" in closed syllables, and you, as he does, sometimes do
> this with omicron, "aw" as in "law" in at least some closed syllables.
> I'm not going to criticize this as I never criticize anything having
> to do with pronunciation, but I do wonder why you choose to do this.
> It does lead to more homophones, which I continue to maintain are
> the enemy of comprehension, though enemies which can be overcome.
> 
> I did not notice you differing from the standard accentuation
> as it is taught in ancient Greek.  Have I missed something?
> 
> Bottom line is that I have added your samples to my MP3 player
> and I thank you for them.  The dirty little secret of pronunciation is
> that everyone would choose to do it a little differently, which is
> another reason to avoid dogmaticsm on this issue.  I like what you
> have come up with.  
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
> 
> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:
> 
> From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> To: "'A. J. Birch'" <AJB1212 at ono.com>, "'B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 4:41 AM
> Recently I have learned to abstain from declaring a certain system to be
> better than another, let alone the idea of correctness. However, I would
> like to share with you the way I understand to pronounce ancient Greek. This
> is not the result of a rigorous research; rather, it is intended to be a
> practical attempt to accomodate the sounds that I hear with today's Greek,
> and the limitations set by the accentuation system and grammatical forms,
> which should not be confused with each other, I believe, for the sake of
> complying with one pronounciation system or another.
> 
> I have been long looking for a native Greek speaker who proposes a
> pronounciation system other than modern Greek, but I believe there is no
> such thing available for the time being.
> 
> There is a description of the pronounciation system that I am currently
> using at this address: http://referinte-greaca.xhost.ro/index-en.htm. In the
> same material I have placed some audio samples recorded by myself: Genesis
> 1:1-2:3 (ancient Greek), John 3:1-16 (ancient Greek) and 1John 1:1-7 (modern
> Greek).
> 
> Vasile Stancu
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of A. J. Birch
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:18 AM
> To: B-Greek
> Subject: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> 
> Dear 'B-Greekers',
> 
> Nikolaos Adamou wrote,
> "There is another audio with more attention to the accents in:
> http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/
> http://www.helding.net/greeklatinaudio/greek/matthew/MAT01G.mp3
> Although the voice is still not natural..."
> 
> In an effort to move from the Erasmian pronunciation that I was 'brought up
> on' to something more like 'real Greek', I've been listening to the John
> Simon recordings and adapting my pronunciation to his. What do those of you
> who know more about this than I do think of the Simon recordings - his
> pronunciation, etc.? Is there something better 'out there'?
> 
> Thankyou,
> 
> Andrew J. Birch
> Palma de Mallorca, Spain
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> 
> 
>       
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