[B-Greek] Pronunciation
Vasile STANCU
stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Mon Dec 28 14:06:52 EST 2009
Dear Nikolaos,
Thank you very much for your comments. I would not dare however to judge these matters this way, simply because I do not possess the necessary knowledge. At the same time, I am not totally ignorant about such historic facts. Yet my feeling is that anyone who tries to reconstruct any pronounciation system of the ancient times using instruments like these primarily (leaving, for instance, accentuation/grammatical evidence aside as some kind of secondary evidence) is bound to finally admit that the result is, to a certain extent, a mix of compromises. To me, a fact stronger than the evidence related to confusions of letters in inscriptions is the accentuation system of ancient Greek. I would compare this to the Masoretic work of adding signs to the consonants so as to promote a pronounciation system which is not restricted to oral transmission only: that was a time (if my understanding is correct) when Hebrew language was in danger to be forgotten by a large number of Jews due to the fact that many of them were scattered around the world and the traditional way to teach every generation was not guaranteed anymore; I guess there was a time (especially when Greek became more and more international) when a similar „danger” was felt by some.
What I see behind accentuation is the work of some scholars whom I consider to be the main witnesses to what Greek pronounciation still was in use - by some, at least - in their time but gave important signs of alteration: their intention was, I believe, mainly to provide a graphic tool by which generations to come would be able to recognize that mechanism. What I see in the confusions you mention, is certain tendencies in certain times. But if I see today an advertisment in Paris saying „all is is ze box”, I would not rush to decide that there is a legitimate tendency today that „th” should be pronounced „z”. Or, when I see that some friends of mine that live in Japan often write „armost” instead of „almost”, or „prease” instead of „please” etc., I would not explain to anybody that the tendency today is that „r” and „l” are melting with each other into a common sound. And I have seen sometimes that most of such examples related to ancient Greek confusions in writing are taken mainly from documents written by non-native Greek speakers/writers. I would prefer therefore to trust those who invented the accentuation system than those who prove something by the confusions they made: the former were trying to preserve something they considered valuable; the latter did not care of any such aspects.
Dear Nikolaos, I know that is it very easy to turn such discussion into a heated debate, but my position is a very simple and sincere one: when I have read your remarks, I am still left with the question: what system should I use? You would probably answer: the modern Greek system, of course. Yet, my questions are not fully answered; you say, for instance, that „one should not apply the pronounciation of Attic to other dialects”, but in case I apply modern Greek pronounciation to Attic, for instance, should I apply it also to Koine, Herodotus, Homer, etc.? What do you personally do in practice in this sense? Do you read all relevant categories of writings differently, according to different pronounciation systems that were relevant in those respective times/places?
I believe it is not extremely difficult for one who is already learned enough in Ancient Greek (whatever system he used in his studies) to later turn completely to modern Greek pronounciation of ancient Greek, but for a beginner with absolute no Greek knowledge it is very hard (unnecessarily in my opinion) work to learn and distinguish between all those many grammatical forms that differ from each other sometimes just by the very letters that are pronounced exactly the same way in modern Greek. My opinion is that a system which is more... at least usable, or practical, is one that starts with today’s Greek phonology, ammended as necesary when colliding with the accentuation rules and some important grammatical aspects.
Vasile
From: Nicholas Aggelopoulos [mailto:n_aggelopoulos at hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 12:10 PM
To: stancu at mail.dnttm.ro; lightmanmark at yahoo.com; ajb1212 at ono.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
Dear Vasile,
The long E was written as H even in some archaic inscriptions. In one well known inscription it was differentiated from E in the same way modern Greeks differentiate E from H. The practice to write it as E continued in Athens until 403 BC (archonship of Euclid) when the older E was differentiated to E, H or EI according to use. The pronunciation of H and EI was in some cases confused and the pronunciation of I could be confused with EI. All this tends to support the Modern Greek pronunciation.
Not all modern Greeks have supported the Modern Greek pronunciation (e.g. Hadjidakis has not). However, the use of /e:/ to pronounce the letter H in Attic after the archonship of Euclid (and perhaps even before) is not guaranteed. Also one should not apply the pronunciation of Attic to other dialects, where the E was differentiated from H before 403.
Regards,
Nikolaos Aggelopoulos
> From: stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
> To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com; AJB1212 at ono.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 10:20:48 +0200
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
>
> Mark,
>
>
>
> This is nice... I understand now why at times we understand such matters differently. I am quite familiar with English, but at the same time I speak Romanian as my mother tongue. I can also speak some Italian, French and Spanish. Since I have always been keen enough with pronounciation with all the languages I tried to learn, I have learned to judge other languages by their own standards rather than by my own language. In Romanian we make quite clear distinction between vowels and diphtongues; all letters of the alphabet are always pronounced the same way (plus a few combinations that have their specific rules) in all circumstances. If one learnes the alphabet, one is ready to speak correctly the language. In English, the situation seems to be quite different; for instance, if you want to explain how to pronounce „a” in a certain case, you need to appeal to some examples, as its pronounciation may be different in different words.
>
>
>
> In the examples you gave me, it seems that we apply different procedures when lenghtening vowels ε E / ο O so as to obtain η H / ω W:
>
> (1) ε E -> η H
>
> (a) Your „technique” (as I understand it): pronounce η H in γῆν GHN as compared to ε E in βλέπω BLEPW as you would „ay” in „clay” as compared with „e” in „pet”
>
> (b) My technique: pronounce γῆν GHN (where η is a long vowel) as you would say „ge” in „get” (but you do not say it yet: keep it in memory), then take the „en” from „pen” and add it to the same memory. Then, link the two together and utter the result: it should be „g” + double lenght „e” + n, i.e., γῆν GHN. (In „exetey”, the „ei” sounds to my ear not like a long vowel, but as a diphtong).
>
> Similarly for ο O -> ω W
>
>
>
> Why you normally say „exetey” rather than „exeteeh”, is probably a matter related to English euphony, which is not to be debated; I noticed for example that most of the Italians can hardly pronounce English words that end in a consonant without adding a vowel. To me, as a Romanian, it is not quite easy to pronounce a correct English „r” or „th”, but I am making efforts to imitate native speakers.
>
>
>
> Regarding the audio files, I have done some touch-up because I noticed some mistakes: (1) in Genesis, καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τοὺς δύο φωστῆρας τοὺς μεγάλους KAI EPOIHSEN O QEOS TOUS DUO FWSTERAS TOUS MEGALOUS I pronounced article ὁ O as if it were accented; (2) in the last paragraph of the Genesis file I had swallowed an ε E in συνετελέσθησαν SUNETELESQHSAN; (3) in the last paragraph of 1John the ω W in αλλήλων ALLELWN had been pronounced in a way that I did not intend (something like ου).
>
>
>
> Vasile
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mark Lightman [mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 11:07 PM
> To: AJB1212 at ono.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Vasile STANCU
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
>
>
>
>
> Vacile wrote:
>
>
>
> <Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA
>
> to an O if I did so is by „mistake” („mistake” against
>
> what I consider to be standard), because my intention
>
> has always been to pronounce ETA like a double length
>
> E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way,
>
> could you please give me some examples of such
>
> occurrences? Honestly, I replayed the files and
>
> cannot find that; it might be that I have become
>
> so used with my own „mistakes” that I cannot recognize them anymore...>
>
>
>
> Hi Vacile,
>
>
>
> I did call and do not consider this a mistake, because
>
> again, this is what Rico (sometimes) does and what
>
> (some) of his readers (sometimes) do. I ask why only
>
> because I'm honestly curious about this shift. Maybe it
>
> is something Modern Greeks (sometimes) do without
>
> even thinking about it. Americans do something similar
>
> with epsilon. We tend to pronounce it usually like a short
>
> e as in "pet," but sometimes we lengthen it to ay as in
>
> "clay" in final open syllables. Thus many, if not most, Americans
>
> will pronounce εχετε ECETE as "exetay," not "exete." Now
>
> (a) this does not make a lot of sense and (b) I don't know and
>
> I'm not sure I really care why we do this. Phemister usually
>
> does this, I think. So I guess I should not really care why you and
>
> Rico do something similar with HTA. We apply, I guess, a different
>
> set of standards when listening to Koine. I guess if I got a recording
>
> of an American speaking English I would notice all sorts of oddities
>
> which are not really worth analyzing.
>
>
>
> But anyway, for what it is worth, in John 3:6 you pronounce
>
> the THS in εκ της σαρκος as ek tes, not ek tays, and I think in
>
> ουρανον in John 3:13. the alpha and the omega sound alike, an
>
> example of what Buth calls "North American Astartism."
>
>
>
> But again, this is not a criticism. Since my post yesterday I have
>
> listened to your Genesis a bunch of times and I really like it. The
>
> simple word order, based of course on the Hebrew, makes the OT
>
> maybe a better source of audio than can be easily internalized
>
> than the NT.
>
>
>
> Keep it up.
>
>
> Mark L
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
> --- On Sun, 12/27/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro> wrote:
>
>
> From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> To: lightmanmark at yahoo.com, AJB1212 at ono.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Sunday, December 27, 2009, 2:28 AM
>
> Mark,
>
> Thanks for your comments. Characterizing this system as being essentially Erasmian is correct, I guess, because this was the system I came accross with and used when I first started to study Greek. In the meantime however, I tried to adapt it to whatever seemed to be more in line with such requirements as fluency, compatibility with modern Greek sounds, consistency with the limitations set by grammar and accentuation, etc. At this moment, I would define it as a systems that employs actual modern Greek phonetics, to the extent that grammatical forms and accentuation rules are not affected. The Erasmian principles are appealed to when the application of modern Greek phonetics produces confusions that are, in my opinion, important.
>
> The Erasmian system applies here mainly (and probably solely) in relation with the vowels η/H, υ/U and ω/W and the diphtongs. And I think this should not be considered too much in violation of the actual Greek phonetics, because probably there was a time when these letters were pronounced as such (even though not all of them in the same period of time; what I mean to say is that they are not entirely „non-Greek”).
>
> (If you noticed that sometimes I pronounce AU as AF/AV, etc., this happens only in relation with modern Greek. I adeed some parallels with modern Greek (for the explanations given for each letter and a sample text audio recording) for the purpose of having a ready comparison. The audio file for 1John 1:1-7 is in fact the respective text in modern Greek, pronounced by modern Greek phonetic rules – at least, this was my intention...).
>
> Regarding the shortening of ETA to an E, or OMEGA to an O if I did so is by „mistake” („mistake” against what I consider to be standard), because my intention has always been to pronounce ETA like a double lenght E and OMEGA like a double length O. By the way, could you please give me some examples of such occurences? Honestly, I replayed the files and cannot find that; it might be that I have become so used with my own „mistakes” that I cannot recognize them anymore...
>
> As for accentuation, I have tried to always strictly obey the rules. Some time ago I composed a short material to explain the way I understand to practically apply the accentuation rules in pronounciation. See, if you will, http://greaca-veche.xhost.ro/accent.pdf.
>
> Vasile
>
> From: Mark Lightman [mailto:lightmanmark at yahoo.com <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lightmanmark@yahoo.com> ]
> Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 9:54 PM
> To: 'A. J. Birch'; 'B-Greek'; Vasile STANCU
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
>
> Hi Vasile,
>
> I found your site and the audio samples to be interesting, helpful,
> and KALA. I would characterize your system as essentially
> Erasmian with a few concessions to MG (B-V, AU-af.) As a result
> I find your samples easier to understand and internalize than Buth or
> MG, but maybe a little smoother, more flowing than say Phemister, though again
> she remains my favorite as she is still the easiest for me to understand and like
> you I have abandoned the standard of what is 'authentic," "natural"
> or even "pleasing."
>
> I note that you, like Rico, appear to shorten HTA to an e as in
> "pet" in closed syllables, and you, as he does, sometimes do
> this with omicron, "aw" as in "law" in at least some closed syllables.
> I'm not going to criticize this as I never criticize anything having
> to do with pronunciation, but I do wonder why you choose to do this.
> It does lead to more homophones, which I continue to maintain are
> the enemy of comprehension, though enemies which can be overcome.
>
> I did not notice you differing from the standard accentuation
> as it is taught in ancient Greek. Have I missed something?
>
> Bottom line is that I have added your samples to my MP3 player
> and I thank you for them. The dirty little secret of pronunciation is
> that everyone would choose to do it a little differently, which is
> another reason to avoid dogmaticsm on this issue. I like what you
> have come up with.
>
> Mark L
>
>
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
>
> --- On Thu, 12/24/09, Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stancu@mail.dnttm.ro> > wrote:
>
> From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stancu@mail.dnttm.ro> >
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
> To: "'A. J. Birch'" <AJB1212 at ono.com <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=AJB1212@ono.com> >, "'B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org> >
> Date: Thursday, December 24, 2009, 4:41 AM
> Recently I have learned to abstain from declaring a certain system to be
> better than another, let alone the idea of correctness. However, I would
> like to share with you the way I understand to pronounce ancient Greek. This
> is not the result of a rigorous research; rather, it is intended to be a
> practical attempt to accomodate the sounds that I hear with today's Greek,
> and the limitations set by the accentuation system and grammatical forms,
> which should not be confused with each other, I believe, for the sake of
> complying with one pronounciation system or another.
>
> I have been long looking for a native Greek speaker who proposes a
> pronounciation system other than modern Greek, but I believe there is no
> such thing available for the time being.
>
> There is a description of the pronounciation system that I am currently
> using at this address: http://referinte-greaca.xhost.ro/index-en.htm. In the
> same material I have placed some audio samples recorded by myself: Genesis
> 1:1-2:3 (ancient Greek), John 3:1-16 (ancient Greek) and 1John 1:1-7 (modern
> Greek).
>
> Vasile Stancu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org>
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org <http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org> ] On Behalf Of A. J. Birch
> Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 10:18 AM
> To: B-Greek
> Subject: [B-Greek] Pronunciation
>
> Dear 'B-Greekers',
>
> Nikolaos Adamou wrote,
> "There is another audio with more attention to the accents in:
> http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/
> http://www.helding.net/greeklatinaudio/greek/matthew/MAT01G.mp3
> Although the voice is still not natural..."
>
> In an effort to move from the Erasmian pronunciation that I was 'brought up
> on' to something more like 'real Greek', I've been listening to the John
> Simon recordings and adapting my pronunciation to his. What do those of you
> who know more about this than I do think of the Simon recordings - his
> pronunciation, etc.? Is there something better 'out there'?
>
> Thankyou,
>
> Andrew J. Birch
> Palma de Mallorca, Spain
> ---
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>
>
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>
>
>
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