[B-Greek] LOGIZOMAI as a process (BDAG2)

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jan 16 10:01:42 EST 2009


Okay, let's look at these passages you've cited:

> 1 Macc 6:19 LXX KAI ELOGISATO IOUDAS EXARAI AUTOUS KAI EXEKKLHSIASE  
> PANTA TON
> LAON TOU PERIKAQISAI EP AUTOUS.
> - Result of thinking. Judas was not thinking of whether to destroy  
> them, but
> he purposed to do so and called the people to besiege them for that  
> purpose.

= "he decided"
>
>
> Ps 51:4 LXX ADIKIAN ELOGISATO hH GLWSSA SOU
> - The tongue was not just contemplating injustice, but had deviced it.

"devised"? ELOGISATO here appears to be a literal "interlinear"  
equivalent to the Hebrew verb, "tachshov" which appears to be  
imperfect; if the LXX translator was reading "tachshov" the aorist  
Greek ELOGISATO would seem questionable. In any case, the passage is  
problematic since it's clearly imagistic: the tongue does not  
calculate or reason.

> Wisdom (SOFIA SALOMWNOS) 2:1 EIPON GAR EN hEAUTOIS LOGISAMENOI OUK  
> ORQWS
> - This also refers to the conclusion of the thought process. They  
> were of the
> opinion that is expressed by what comes next in the context.

I'll agree here; this is an aorist: LOGISAMENOI OUK ORQWS = "That was  
bad thinking."

> Luke 24:1 D: THi DE MIAi TWN SABBATWN ORQROU BAQEWS EPI TO MNHMA HLQON
> FEROUSAI hA hTOIMASAN KAI TINES SUN AUTAIS ELOGIZONTO EN hEAUTAIS:  
> TIS ARA
> APOKULISEI TON LIQON.
> - This is one of the closest ones to the idea of meditation. This is  
> an
> attempt to figure out, not an attempt to meditate on a theme.

Doesn't this really mean, "were wondering" -- "were asking the  
question"? After all it is followed by the direct question, TIS ARA  
APOKULISEI TON LIQON/

> John 11:50 OUDE LOGIZESQE hOTI SUMFEREI hUMIN hINA EIS ANQRWPOS  
> APOQANHi hUPER
> TOU LAOU KAI MH hOLON TO EQNOS APOLHTAI.
> - Result of thinking clearly referred to.

How can that be so. Seems to me, "You are not considering ... " or  
"You aren't taking into account ... " I don't see how you can say this  
is a "result of thinking"; Caiaphas is criticizing the others for  
faulty thinking precisely because they are not reckoning in the  
proposition  he cites.

> 1 Cor 13:11 hOTE HMHN NHPIOS, ELALOUN hWS NHPIOS, EFRONOUN hWS NHPIOS,
> ELOGIZOMHN hWS NHPIOS.
> - I made childish conclusions, not necessarily that the thinking  
> process was
> childish.

I can't see this; I don't think it means "I made childish  
conclusions" (ELOGISAMHN) but rather "I reasoned the way a child  
reasons" -- perhaps "jumping to conclusions" without reckoning in all  
that's relevant.

> 2 Cor 3:5 OUX hOTI AF' hEAUTWN hIKANOI ESMEN LOGISASQAI TI hWS EX  
> hEAUTWN.
> - We are not sufficient to come to any conclusion about anything as  
> of our own
> ability.

Agreed; here the aorist infinnitive does seem to mean "draw a  
conclusion."

> 2 Cor 10:2a DEOMAI DE TO MH PARWN QARRHSAI THi PEPOIQHSEI hHi  
> LOGIZOMAI
> TOLMHSAI (EPI TINAS TOUS LOGIZOMENOUS hHMAS hWS KATA SARKA  
> PERIPATOUNTAS.)
> - Result of thinking

I don't think so; I think LOGIZOMAI and LOGIZOMENOUS here must both  
point rather to considering a course of action, not to a decision to  
act thus.

> 2 Cor 10:7 TA KATA PROSWPON BLEPETE. EI TIS PEPOIQEN hEAUTWi XRISTOU  
> EINAI,
> TOUTO LOGIZESQW PALIN EF' hEAUTOU, hOTI KAQWS AUTOS XRISTOU, hOUTWS  
> KAI
> hHMEIS.
> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.

I don't think it's "Let him be of this opinion," but rather, "Let him  
take this into consideration" -- "He should think again, should take  
this once more under review with regard to himself ... "

> 2 Cor 10:11 TOUTO LOGIZESQW hO TOIOUTOS hOTI hOIOI ESMEN TWi LOGWi DI'
> EPISTOLWN APONTES, TOIOUTOI KAI PARONTES TWi ERGWi.
> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.

Again, I think the pressent imperative here means rather, "He should  
take this into consideration" -- NOT "He should reach this conclusion."
>
>
> Phil 4:8 TO LOIPON, ADELFOI, hOSA ESTIN ALHQH, hOSA SEMNA, hOSA  
> DIKAIA, hOSA
> hAGNA, hOSA PROSFILH, hOSA EUFHMA, EI TIS ARETH KAI EI TIS EPAINOS,  
> TAUTA
> LOGIZESQE.
> - Take these things into account?

Yes indeed: take them into account; make them the premises of your  
calculations and proceed to work out your course of action in  
accordance with them (cf. Phil 2:12 META FOBOU KAI TROMOU THN hEAUTWN  
SWTHRIAN KATERGAZESQE.

> Hebr 11:19 LOGISAMENOS hOTI KAI EK NEKRWN EGEIREIN DUNATOS hO QEOS,  
> hOQEN
> AUTON KAI EN PARABOLHi EKOMISATO.
> - Result of thinking

The reference here is to what Abraham did by faith (offering up  
Isaac); 11:19 indicates the proposition that Abraham took into account  
when he proceeded to offer up Isaac. The aorist tense is significant  
here.

> Hermas, Similitudes 5, 2, 4 EN hEAUTWi OUN ELOGISATO: TAUTHN THN  
> ENTOLHN TOU
> KURIOU TETELEKA: SKAYW LOIPON TON AMPELWNA TOUTON, KAI ESTAI  
> EUPREPESTEROS
> ESKAMMENOS...
> - Result of thinking.

Right; the verb is aorist.

> Hermas, Similitudes 9, 28, 4 ... KAI ELOGISANTO EN TAIS KARDIAIS  
> AUTWN POTERON
> ARNHSONTAI H hOMOLOGESOUSI...
> - A process of trying to figure out a decision.

Yes, but it is referred to in the past; translate with a pluperfect:  
"They had pondered the question, whether ... or ... "

> Diognetos 7:3 ARA GE, hWS ANTQRWPON AN TIS LOGISAITO, EPI TURANNIDI  
> KAI FOBWi
> KAI KATAPLHXEI?
> - Like someone might think (be of opinion).

OK: or "reckon"

On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:

> I do, but what I am suggesting is that even with the imperfective,  
> there is an
> attempt at reaching a conclusion unlike with 'meditation' or a typical
> interpretation of Phil 4:8. Thus lexically the word would be an
> accomplishment in Vendlerian terms (or a state in another sense of the
> lexeme), not a process without an implied terminal point (not a  
> Vendlerian
> activity). This is regardless of whether that implied terminal point  
> is
> reached. In the imperfective it is not stated that it was reached  
> (unless the
> sense is 'to be of some opinion', which would be a Vendlerian state).
>
> Kimmo Huovila
>
> On perjantai 16 tammikuu 2009, you wrote:
>> On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:17 AM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
>>
>>> BDAG gives LOGIZOMAI the sense "to give careful thought to a matter,
>>> think
>>> (about), consider, ponder, let one's mind dwell on" (2). I
>>> understand this to
>>> refer to thinking as a process, not as the result. Many of the
>>> examples
>>> referred to are examples of a result of thinking; some refer to a
>>> process of
>>> trying to reach a conclusion; none that I found refers to meditation
>>> of any
>>> kind.
>>
>> Don't you think we ought to distinguish between LOGIZESQAI
>> (imperfective) and LOGISASQAI (perfective) in consideration of these
>> passages. Granted that the verb does mean quite fundamentally  
>> "think,"
>> it seems to me that the imperfective forms here must point to a
>> process of reasoning, whether valid or faulty, while the perfective
>> forms might more likely point to reaching a conclusion, coming to a
>> decision.
>>
>
>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)






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