[B-Greek] LOGIZOMAI as a process (BDAG2)
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jan 16 10:01:42 EST 2009
Okay, let's look at these passages you've cited:
> 1 Macc 6:19 LXX KAI ELOGISATO IOUDAS EXARAI AUTOUS KAI EXEKKLHSIASE
> PANTA TON
> LAON TOU PERIKAQISAI EP AUTOUS.
> - Result of thinking. Judas was not thinking of whether to destroy
> them, but
> he purposed to do so and called the people to besiege them for that
> purpose.
= "he decided"
>
>
> Ps 51:4 LXX ADIKIAN ELOGISATO hH GLWSSA SOU
> - The tongue was not just contemplating injustice, but had deviced it.
"devised"? ELOGISATO here appears to be a literal "interlinear"
equivalent to the Hebrew verb, "tachshov" which appears to be
imperfect; if the LXX translator was reading "tachshov" the aorist
Greek ELOGISATO would seem questionable. In any case, the passage is
problematic since it's clearly imagistic: the tongue does not
calculate or reason.
> Wisdom (SOFIA SALOMWNOS) 2:1 EIPON GAR EN hEAUTOIS LOGISAMENOI OUK
> ORQWS
> - This also refers to the conclusion of the thought process. They
> were of the
> opinion that is expressed by what comes next in the context.
I'll agree here; this is an aorist: LOGISAMENOI OUK ORQWS = "That was
bad thinking."
> Luke 24:1 D: THi DE MIAi TWN SABBATWN ORQROU BAQEWS EPI TO MNHMA HLQON
> FEROUSAI hA hTOIMASAN KAI TINES SUN AUTAIS ELOGIZONTO EN hEAUTAIS:
> TIS ARA
> APOKULISEI TON LIQON.
> - This is one of the closest ones to the idea of meditation. This is
> an
> attempt to figure out, not an attempt to meditate on a theme.
Doesn't this really mean, "were wondering" -- "were asking the
question"? After all it is followed by the direct question, TIS ARA
APOKULISEI TON LIQON/
> John 11:50 OUDE LOGIZESQE hOTI SUMFEREI hUMIN hINA EIS ANQRWPOS
> APOQANHi hUPER
> TOU LAOU KAI MH hOLON TO EQNOS APOLHTAI.
> - Result of thinking clearly referred to.
How can that be so. Seems to me, "You are not considering ... " or
"You aren't taking into account ... " I don't see how you can say this
is a "result of thinking"; Caiaphas is criticizing the others for
faulty thinking precisely because they are not reckoning in the
proposition he cites.
> 1 Cor 13:11 hOTE HMHN NHPIOS, ELALOUN hWS NHPIOS, EFRONOUN hWS NHPIOS,
> ELOGIZOMHN hWS NHPIOS.
> - I made childish conclusions, not necessarily that the thinking
> process was
> childish.
I can't see this; I don't think it means "I made childish
conclusions" (ELOGISAMHN) but rather "I reasoned the way a child
reasons" -- perhaps "jumping to conclusions" without reckoning in all
that's relevant.
> 2 Cor 3:5 OUX hOTI AF' hEAUTWN hIKANOI ESMEN LOGISASQAI TI hWS EX
> hEAUTWN.
> - We are not sufficient to come to any conclusion about anything as
> of our own
> ability.
Agreed; here the aorist infinnitive does seem to mean "draw a
conclusion."
> 2 Cor 10:2a DEOMAI DE TO MH PARWN QARRHSAI THi PEPOIQHSEI hHi
> LOGIZOMAI
> TOLMHSAI (EPI TINAS TOUS LOGIZOMENOUS hHMAS hWS KATA SARKA
> PERIPATOUNTAS.)
> - Result of thinking
I don't think so; I think LOGIZOMAI and LOGIZOMENOUS here must both
point rather to considering a course of action, not to a decision to
act thus.
> 2 Cor 10:7 TA KATA PROSWPON BLEPETE. EI TIS PEPOIQEN hEAUTWi XRISTOU
> EINAI,
> TOUTO LOGIZESQW PALIN EF' hEAUTOU, hOTI KAQWS AUTOS XRISTOU, hOUTWS
> KAI
> hHMEIS.
> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
I don't think it's "Let him be of this opinion," but rather, "Let him
take this into consideration" -- "He should think again, should take
this once more under review with regard to himself ... "
> 2 Cor 10:11 TOUTO LOGIZESQW hO TOIOUTOS hOTI hOIOI ESMEN TWi LOGWi DI'
> EPISTOLWN APONTES, TOIOUTOI KAI PARONTES TWi ERGWi.
> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
Again, I think the pressent imperative here means rather, "He should
take this into consideration" -- NOT "He should reach this conclusion."
>
>
> Phil 4:8 TO LOIPON, ADELFOI, hOSA ESTIN ALHQH, hOSA SEMNA, hOSA
> DIKAIA, hOSA
> hAGNA, hOSA PROSFILH, hOSA EUFHMA, EI TIS ARETH KAI EI TIS EPAINOS,
> TAUTA
> LOGIZESQE.
> - Take these things into account?
Yes indeed: take them into account; make them the premises of your
calculations and proceed to work out your course of action in
accordance with them (cf. Phil 2:12 META FOBOU KAI TROMOU THN hEAUTWN
SWTHRIAN KATERGAZESQE.
> Hebr 11:19 LOGISAMENOS hOTI KAI EK NEKRWN EGEIREIN DUNATOS hO QEOS,
> hOQEN
> AUTON KAI EN PARABOLHi EKOMISATO.
> - Result of thinking
The reference here is to what Abraham did by faith (offering up
Isaac); 11:19 indicates the proposition that Abraham took into account
when he proceeded to offer up Isaac. The aorist tense is significant
here.
> Hermas, Similitudes 5, 2, 4 EN hEAUTWi OUN ELOGISATO: TAUTHN THN
> ENTOLHN TOU
> KURIOU TETELEKA: SKAYW LOIPON TON AMPELWNA TOUTON, KAI ESTAI
> EUPREPESTEROS
> ESKAMMENOS...
> - Result of thinking.
Right; the verb is aorist.
> Hermas, Similitudes 9, 28, 4 ... KAI ELOGISANTO EN TAIS KARDIAIS
> AUTWN POTERON
> ARNHSONTAI H hOMOLOGESOUSI...
> - A process of trying to figure out a decision.
Yes, but it is referred to in the past; translate with a pluperfect:
"They had pondered the question, whether ... or ... "
> Diognetos 7:3 ARA GE, hWS ANTQRWPON AN TIS LOGISAITO, EPI TURANNIDI
> KAI FOBWi
> KAI KATAPLHXEI?
> - Like someone might think (be of opinion).
OK: or "reckon"
On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:36 AM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
> I do, but what I am suggesting is that even with the imperfective,
> there is an
> attempt at reaching a conclusion unlike with 'meditation' or a typical
> interpretation of Phil 4:8. Thus lexically the word would be an
> accomplishment in Vendlerian terms (or a state in another sense of the
> lexeme), not a process without an implied terminal point (not a
> Vendlerian
> activity). This is regardless of whether that implied terminal point
> is
> reached. In the imperfective it is not stated that it was reached
> (unless the
> sense is 'to be of some opinion', which would be a Vendlerian state).
>
> Kimmo Huovila
>
> On perjantai 16 tammikuu 2009, you wrote:
>> On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:17 AM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
>>
>>> BDAG gives LOGIZOMAI the sense "to give careful thought to a matter,
>>> think
>>> (about), consider, ponder, let one's mind dwell on" (2). I
>>> understand this to
>>> refer to thinking as a process, not as the result. Many of the
>>> examples
>>> referred to are examples of a result of thinking; some refer to a
>>> process of
>>> trying to reach a conclusion; none that I found refers to meditation
>>> of any
>>> kind.
>>
>> Don't you think we ought to distinguish between LOGIZESQAI
>> (imperfective) and LOGISASQAI (perfective) in consideration of these
>> passages. Granted that the verb does mean quite fundamentally
>> "think,"
>> it seems to me that the imperfective forms here must point to a
>> process of reasoning, whether valid or faulty, while the perfective
>> forms might more likely point to reaching a conclusion, coming to a
>> decision.
>>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list