[B-Greek] LOGIZOMAI as a process (BDAG2)
Kimmo Huovila
kimmo.huovila at kolumbus.fi
Fri Jan 16 11:42:24 EST 2009
Thank you for your comments. I agree that I had not given good labels or
glosses for all the passages. "Taking into account" is a good gloss for some
examples, as you suggest. That is BDAG 1a. This gives some confirmation to my
suspicion that BDAG category 2 is not quite well written.
On perjantai 16 tammikuu 2009, Carl Conrad wrote:
> Okay, let's look at these passages you've cited:
>
> > 1 Macc 6:19 LXX KAI ELOGISATO IOUDAS EXARAI AUTOUS KAI EXEKKLHSIASE
> > PANTA TON
> > LAON TOU PERIKAQISAI EP AUTOUS.
> > - Result of thinking. Judas was not thinking of whether to destroy
> > them, but
> > he purposed to do so and called the people to besiege them for that
> > purpose.
>
> = "he decided"
OK
> > Ps 51:4 LXX ADIKIAN ELOGISATO hH GLWSSA SOU
> > - The tongue was not just contemplating injustice, but had deviced it.
>
> "devised"?
Yes, my typo.
> ELOGISATO here appears to be a literal "interlinear"
> equivalent to the Hebrew verb, "tachshov" which appears to be
> imperfect; if the LXX translator was reading "tachshov" the aorist
> Greek ELOGISATO would seem questionable. In any case, the passage is
> problematic since it's clearly imagistic: the tongue does not
> calculate or reason.
>
As it is the tongue, I would assume that it is expressing ADIKIA that it (or
the person having the tongue) has devised.
>
> > Luke 24:1 D: THi DE MIAi TWN SABBATWN ORQROU BAQEWS EPI TO MNHMA HLQON
> > FEROUSAI hA hTOIMASAN KAI TINES SUN AUTAIS ELOGIZONTO EN hEAUTAIS:
> > TIS ARA
> > APOKULISEI TON LIQON.
> > - This is one of the closest ones to the idea of meditation. This is
> > an
> > attempt to figure out, not an attempt to meditate on a theme.
>
> Doesn't this really mean, "were wondering" -- "were asking the
> question"? After all it is followed by the direct question, TIS ARA
> APOKULISEI TON LIQON/
If so, this would be the lone (?) example of LOGIZOMAI meaning thinking of a
question as such? Or were they trying to find an answer to the practical need
they were about to face?
>
> > John 11:50 OUDE LOGIZESQE hOTI SUMFEREI hUMIN hINA EIS ANQRWPOS
> > APOQANHi hUPER
> > TOU LAOU KAI MH hOLON TO EQNOS APOLHTAI.
> > - Result of thinking clearly referred to.
>
> How can that be so. Seems to me, "You are not considering ... " or
> "You aren't taking into account ... " I don't see how you can say this
> is a "result of thinking"; Caiaphas is criticizing the others for
> faulty thinking precisely because they are not reckoning in the
> proposition he cites.
You are right. "You aren't taking into account" sounds pretty good to me.
>
> > 1 Cor 13:11 hOTE HMHN NHPIOS, ELALOUN hWS NHPIOS, EFRONOUN hWS NHPIOS,
> > ELOGIZOMHN hWS NHPIOS.
> > - I made childish conclusions, not necessarily that the thinking
> > process was
> > childish.
>
> I can't see this; I don't think it means "I made childish
> conclusions" (ELOGISAMHN) but rather "I reasoned the way a child
> reasons" -- perhaps "jumping to conclusions" without reckoning in all
> that's relevant.
Very possible. This one is a little bit hard to say for sure, but I tried to
show that it is not necessary to consider that this refers to the thought
process as such.
> > 2 Cor 10:2a DEOMAI DE TO MH PARWN QARRHSAI THi PEPOIQHSEI hHi
> > LOGIZOMAI
> > TOLMHSAI (EPI TINAS TOUS LOGIZOMENOUS hHMAS hWS KATA SARKA
> > PERIPATOUNTAS.)
> > - Result of thinking
>
> I don't think so; I think LOGIZOMAI and LOGIZOMENOUS here must both
> point rather to considering a course of action, not to a decision to
> act thus.
I would think that the object of LOGIZOMAI is TOLMHSAI. He concluded that it
this case dares to act with confidence (THi PEPOIQHSEI). The result here
is "TOLMW EN TINI PEPOIQHSEI". No?
LOGIZOMENOUS was not under my consideration, as BDAG referred only to the
LOGIZOMAI in this verse (a somewhat artificial way to limit the corpus to
make the study a little bit faster).
>
> > 2 Cor 10:7 TA KATA PROSWPON BLEPETE. EI TIS PEPOIQEN hEAUTWi XRISTOU
> > EINAI,
> > TOUTO LOGIZESQW PALIN EF' hEAUTOU, hOTI KAQWS AUTOS XRISTOU, hOUTWS
> > KAI
> > hHMEIS.
> > - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
>
> I don't think it's "Let him be of this opinion," but rather, "Let him
> take this into consideration" -- "He should think again, should take
> this once more under review with regard to himself ... "
OK.
>
> > 2 Cor 10:11 TOUTO LOGIZESQW hO TOIOUTOS hOTI hOIOI ESMEN TWi LOGWi DI'
> > EPISTOLWN APONTES, TOIOUTOI KAI PARONTES TWi ERGWi.
> > - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
>
> Again, I think the pressent imperative here means rather, "He should
> take this into consideration" -- NOT "He should reach this conclusion."
OK.
> >
> >
> > Phil 4:8 TO LOIPON, ADELFOI, hOSA ESTIN ALHQH, hOSA SEMNA, hOSA
> > DIKAIA, hOSA
> > hAGNA, hOSA PROSFILH, hOSA EUFHMA, EI TIS ARETH KAI EI TIS EPAINOS,
> > TAUTA
> > LOGIZESQE.
> > - Take these things into account?
>
> Yes indeed: take them into account; make them the premises of your
> calculations and proceed to work out your course of action in
> accordance with them (cf. Phil 2:12 META FOBOU KAI TROMOU THN hEAUTWN
> SWTHRIAN KATERGAZESQE.
OK. This cannot mean "let your mind dwell on these things" (NASB), "think
about such things" (NIV), "think on these things" (KJV) instead of "take them
into account"? The point of my small study is actually to get an answer to
this question.
>
> > Hebr 11:19 LOGISAMENOS hOTI KAI EK NEKRWN EGEIREIN DUNATOS hO QEOS,
> > hOQEN
> > AUTON KAI EN PARABOLHi EKOMISATO.
> > - Result of thinking
>
> The reference here is to what Abraham did by faith (offering up
> Isaac); 11:19 indicates the proposition that Abraham took into account
> when he proceeded to offer up Isaac. The aorist tense is significant
> here.
OK.
Kimmo Huovila
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