[B-Greek] Rom 4:1

Donald COBB docobb at orange.fr
Tue Jul 21 11:20:52 EDT 2009


I think there is a contextual clue to Paul's potientially ambiguous language 
in this verse.

In a sentence which could grammatically be understood in different ways, the 
translation proposed by Wright and Hays, et al, seems to me to run up 
against a difficulty: assuming that Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν εὑρηκέναι Ἀβραὰμ τὸν 
προπάτορα ἡμῶν κατὰ σάρκα; TI OUN EROUMEN hEURHKENAI ABRAAM TON PROPATORA 
hHMWN KATA SARKA; should be translated more or less as follows: "What, 
therefore, shall we say? That we have found Abraham to be our forefather 
[only] according to the flesh?", the point of the phrase as I read it would 
seem to be that Paul is summarizing his finds of the preceeding chapter(s). 
I find it somewhat mystifying, though, that Paul could state that he his 
putting forward a conclusion of his previous argument (οὖν) as concerns 
Abraham... when this is the first time in his letter that he mentions 
Abraham at all.

In what is, all in all, a carefully crafted piece of literature, it is 
surprising that Paul would make that kind of a jump. It seems to me that v. 
1 makes much more sense as the introduction of a new section: "So now, what 
shall we say Abraham--our forefather according to the flesh--to have found?" 
OUN, in this case, would have more of a transitional and foreward looking 
connotion (cf. BDAG 2 : "so", "now then"; I note that BDAG's mention that 
OUN can serve "to indicate a transition to someth. new", 2b). Contextually 
that runs perfectly with what Paul says in the following verses.

It struck me a few years ago while studying Romans, that Paul, in this 
letter particularly, tends to prepare his readers for new topics by 
introducing them very briefly, then going on to something completely 
different before coming back to them and giving his full development 
(notice, for instance, how he somewhat enigmatically broaches the idea, in 
5:20, of the law coming so that transgression would increase, although he 
doesn't explain himself until 7:7ff., when it becomes his focal point). Rm. 
4:1, in Wright's and Hays' translation, would be the exact opposite of that: 
Paul would be putting forth as a conclusion something that he hasn't 
mentioned at all.

Donald Cobb
Aix-en-Provence, France

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 4:1


> Your suggestion makes good sense in context. This is followed by the
> God's Word translation. I won't quarrel with this general understanding of 
> the
> sense, but I don't think we can defend an "accusative of respect" with 
> this
> verb when there is no preposition. (I see now that Carl has addressed 
> this.) I
> would rather understand hEURISKW in the sense of "discover, experience" 
> with
> respect to the implied concept of justification. The word is commonly used 
> in
> the phrase "find favour in the eyes of God". I think the key verse in the 
> mind
> of Paul is Gen 15:6 (Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as
> righteousness.) This verse is quoted both
> in Rom 4:3 - part of this context - and in Gal 3:6 where Paul talks about 
> the
> same topic.
>
> TEV: What was his experience?
> NET: has discovered regarding this matter
> NIV: discovered in this matter
> NLT: What did he discover about being made right with God?
>
> What he discovered was that by faith he was counted as righteous in the 
> eyes of
> God.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: George F Somsel
> To: Iver Larsen ; Yancy Smith ; Oun Kwon ; greek B-Greek
> Sent: 21. juli 2009 11:58
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 4:1
>
>
> 4 Τί οὖν ἐροῦμεν εὑρηκέναι Ἀβραὰμ τὸν προπάτορα ἡμῶν κατὰ σάρκα; 2 εἰ γὰρ 
> Ἀβραὰμ
> ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, ἔχει καύχημα, ἀλλʼ οὐ πρὸς θεόν.
> TI OUN EROUMEN hEURHKENAI ABRAAM TON PROPATORA hHMWN KATA SARKA? 2  EI GAR
> ABRAAM EC ERGWN EDIKAIWQH, EXEI KAUXHMA, ALL' OU PROS QEON.
>
> The solution which you propose fails in my estimation precisely because 
> there is
> no real connection between v. 1 and what follows (which I include above). 
> I
> would not read ABRAAM either as the subject of the infinitive nor as its 
> object.
> Instead I would understand it as an accusative of respect.  It would then 
> read,
> "What shall we say we have found with respect to our physical ancestor 
> Abraham?
> For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a cause for boasting, but 
> not
> about God."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> To: Yancy Smith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>; Oun Kwon <kwonbbl at gmail.com>; 
> greek
> B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:58:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 4:1
> Sent: 20. juli 2009 23:34
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rom 4:1
>
>
> The only analysis that makes sense to me is to take the sentence as a 
> question
> consisting of two clauses where the second clause is the complement to 
> EROUMEN:
> "What, then, shall we say that Abraham, our human ancestor, has 
> discovered?"
> Paul is here speaking to Jews who put a lot of emphasis on doing the 
> "works of
> the Torah", but - he tells them - our venerable forefather Abraham had 
> already
> discovered (only here is the verb found in the perfect tense) that he was
> accepted as being in right standing with God because of his faith, apart 
> from
> works (CWRIS ERGWN, v. 6).
>
> I am not afraid of challenging traditional analyses and exegeses, but one 
> must
> make a solid case for it, and neither Lenski, Hays nor Wright have been 
> able to
> do so.
>
> I have now read the thread on this topic from October 2001, where Lenski 
> is
> cited as supporting your number 3. His arguments are quite unconvincing, 
> and
> Steve Lo Vullo made some good points in his responses on the list.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ---
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