[B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 1 09:18:34 EST 2009


Mt 5.21-22
 
21Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη τοῖς ἀρχαίοις·οὐ φονεύσεις·ὃς δʼ ἂν φονεύσῃ, ἔνοχος ἔσται τῇ κρίσει.22ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ ἔνοχος ἔσται τῇ κρίσει· 
21 HKOUSATE hOTI ERREQH TOIS ARXAIOIS OU FONEUSEIS; hOS D' AN FONEUSHi, hENOXOS ESTAI THi KRISEI.  22 EGW DE LEGW hUMIN hOTI PAS hO ORGIZOMENOS TWi ADELFWi AUTOU hENOXOS ESTAI THi KRISEI

george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 5:11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19

Can you give me an other instance where the kind of contrast you cite  is marked by DE? 
Al

On Nov 1, 2009, at 1:56 AM, George F Somsel wrote:

But note that one of the uses of DE is to indicate a contrast which is precisely what we have here:
>
>v. 18 EISPOREUOMENON
>v. 20 EKPOREUOMENON
> george
>gfsomsel 
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________ 
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 9:38:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>
>
>
>On Oct 31, 2009, at 10:52 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>It may be that ELEGEN DE is stated because not only is it at some distance from LEGEI in v. 18 but also because the quoted text is interrupted by the explanation that in saying this καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA -- "declaring all food 'clean'."
>Quite so. Since the quoted text is interrupted one expects that the verb of speaking is re-issued. Hence we have ELEGEN, which makes clear that what follows is again spoken by Jesus. But DE is not unexplained thereby. Moreover, I am not aware that DE is ever used  for the purpose of restating the grammatical subject, something which has, of course, already been done by ELEGEN.  DE is, however, used regularly (a) when there is a change in grammatical subject or (b)  when there is a shift in subject matter. In 7:20 (as in 7:9) neither is the case.  While these two uses of DE can hardly be said to be exhaustive, it remains true nevertheless that the use of DE in v. 20 is consistent with a standard use of this particle, namely, a change in grammatical subject (hence my reading of KAQARIZWN). 
> In any case, since you read the text as involving neither of the common uses of DE which I noted, some other explanation of DE would seem called for———and restating of grammatical subject is scarcely an option. 
>All of this is not to say that my reading of KAQARIZWN is correct, but it is to say that your reading needs a better explanation than you have offered.  (There is obviously good reason for regarding Mk 7:19b as a crux interpretum).
>Al 
>
>>george
>>gfsomsel 
>>
>>
>>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>>defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>- Jan Hus
>>_________ 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 7:34:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>
>>
>>
>>On Oct 31, 2009, at 10:20 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>Since your reply came back to me in readable form, I must assume that there is a setting in your browser which needs to be changed.  Do you have it set to send and receive UTF-8? Strangely, though, my settings have not changed and it happens only with your recent postings.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I would simply understand ELEGEN DE in v. 20 as a continuation of the preceding since it is at some distance from LEGEI in v. 18.Since as in in 7:9, for example, both grammatical subject and topic continue (on your reading) from what precedes DE would seem surprising. 
>>Al 
>>
>>> george
>>>gfsomsel 
>>>
>>>
>>>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>>>defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>>- Jan Hus
>>>_________ 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 7:13:03 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>>
>>>Incidentally, your first version of the text is nothing but squares on my screen. I wonder if I am the only subscriber. As for Jesus as the subject of both LEGEI and KAQARIZWN,  might a comment on v. 20 ELEGEN DE be in order?  
>>>Al 
>>>On Oct 31, 2009, at 9:12 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>
>>>18 καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀσύνετοί ἐστε; οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι πᾶν τὸ ἔξωθεν εἰσπορευόμενον εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον οὐ δύναται αὐτὸν κοινῶσαι 19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν ἀλλʼ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν, καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα; 
>>>>18 KAI LEGEI AUTOIS, "hOUTWS KAI hUMEIS ASUNETOI ESTE?  OU NOEITE hOTI ECWQEN EISPOREUOMENON EIS TON ANQRWPON OU DUNATAI AUTON KOINWSAI 
>>>>19 hOTI OUK EISPOREUETAI AUTOU EIS THN KARDIAN ALL' EIS THN KOILIAN, KAI EIS TON AFEDRWNA EKPOREUETAI", KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm still inclined to link it to Jesus as the subject of LEGEI.  The sequence would then be KAI LEGEI AUTOIS " . . . ", KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA.
>>>> george
>>>>gfsomsel 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>… search for truth, hear truth, 
>>>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>>>>defend the truth till death.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>- Jan Hus
>>>>_________ 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>>>To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>>>Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Wieland Willker <wie at uni-bremen.de>
>>>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 5:44:54 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Oct 31, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As much sense as it may make that the KOILIA should be purged/
>>>>> cleansed, does it not even so seem odd to no one that we're talking
>>>>> NOT about "purging the stomach" but rather abut "purging/purifying all
>>>>> foods." That remains for me the stickler that renders the reading
>>>>> KAQARIZON insupportable.
>>>>Carl's astute observation tempts me to break my rule of not commenting  
>>>>on the NT unless the LXX is involved. As he notes, the object of  
>>>>KAQARIZW/ON is not KOILIA but PANTA TA BRWMATA. Thus the text is not  
>>>>about purging the abdomen but about purifying all the foodstuffs.  
>>>>From that perspective one might then suggest that KAQARIZW (= class.  
>>>>KAQAIRW) has to do not with purging or ritual purification but rather  
>>>>with a separating of what is useful from what is waste. So, for  
>>>>example, LSJ (sub KAQAIRW) cites an instance (albeit from ii AD) of  
>>>>winnowing grain, i.e., separating the kernels from the chaff. Like  
>>>>winnowing the human digestive tract might be said to separate the  
>>>>nutrients from the waste (left-over). Both enter the KOILIA but only  
>>>>the latter is excreted.
>>>>
>>>>Why the masculine participle (KAQARIZWN)? While the dash in my NT text  
>>>>reflects, of course, an editorial decision, it seems nonetheless  
>>>>appropriate, given the syntactic interruption. Since ANQRWPOS is  
>>>>clearly the thematic subject of the passage, might ANQRWPOS therefore  
>>>>account for the masculine participle? It is thus ANQWRWPOS, or rather  
>>>>his digestive process that "purifies," i.e., separates the waste from  
>>>>the nutrients.
>>>>
>>>>To be sure, the comment is an aside (an editorial comment on Jesus'  
>>>>words), and not strictly a propos the contrast between what goes into  
>>>>the KOILIA in distinction from what comes out of the KARDIA. Yet,  
>>>>without the aside, might the text be read to suggest that what a  
>>>>person eats simply enters the mouth, passes through the bowels, and is  
>>>>then excreted? Surely the ancients knew better than that!
>>>>One might thus gloss KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA as:  "---- seeing that  
>>>>he (ANQRWPOS) purifies (purges?) all foodstuffs."
>>>>Anyway, my two farthings
>>>>Al
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>>>21 Cross Street,
>>>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>>>B-Greek mailing list
>>>>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>>21 Cross Street, 
>>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>21 Cross Street, 
>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>
>>
>>
>
>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>21 Cross Street, 
>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street, 
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm


      



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