[B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19

Steve Runge srunge at logos.com
Sun Nov 1 10:19:31 EST 2009


Al and George,

Here are some examples that are a closer match, where the same speaker is interrupted by the narrator with a redundant quotative frame. This device has two primary purposes. The first and most common is to segment a long speech into smaller chunks, normally with KAI ELEGEN. The use of an aorist verb could be construed as the expected change of speaker and hearer one associates with EIPEN. Simply breaking into smaller chunks appears in Luke 5:36, where Jesus had been telling them a parable about the bridegroom, but then is reintroduced by the writer as saying another parable:

Luke 5:36: 36 Ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ παραβολὴν πρὸς αὐτοὺς 
5:36 ELEGEN DE KAI PARABOLHN PROS AUTOUS

The second purpose is a derivative of the first. Inserting a discontinuous element (e.g. redundant quotative frame, redundant vocative, an enuncuation formula like "Truly, truly I say to you) in a context of relative continuity causes delay and has the effect of drawing more attention to the speech or event that follows than leaving out the redundant element. I believe that this is what is going on in Mark 9:20 and Luke 9:23, as the key saying of the speech occcurs just after the redudant quotative frame. 

Luke 9:22-23 22 εἰπὼν ὅτι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου πολλὰ παθεῖν καὶ ἀποδοκιμασθῆναι ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθῆναι. 23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας· εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθʼ ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι. 
 
Luke 9:22 EIPWN hOTI DEI TON hUION TOU ANQRWPOU POLLA PAQEIN KAI APODOKIMASQHNAI APO TWN PRESBUTERWN KAI ARXIEREWN KAI GRAMMATEWN KAI APOKTANQHNAI KAI THi TRίTHi hHMERAi EGERQHNAI. 23 ELEGEN DE PROS PANTAS· EI TIS QELEI OPίSW MOU ERXESQAI, ARNHSASQW hEAUTON KAI ARATW TON STAURON AUTOU KAQʼ hHMERAN KAI AKOLOUQEίTW MOI. 

However, in Luke 9:23 there is a shift in addressees from just the disciples that questioned him to a wider audience it appears. Luke 12:54 also has the expansion of the addressees, whereas in Luke 13:6 it remains the same, simply segmenting the text into a smaller chunk. Many of the instances of ELEGEN DE are found at what NA 27 considers to be new paragraphs. There is a chapter covering this device in my forthcoming grammar, a preview of which can be found at www.ntdiscourse.org. There is also a blog post using C.S. Lewis as the subject to illustrate the use of reundant information to delay and thus highlight what follows here: 
http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2009/09/c-s-lewis-and-backgrounding/.

Regards,

Steve 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 6:19 AM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19

Mt 5.21-22
 
21Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη τοῖς ἀρχαίοις·οὐ φονεύσεις·ὃς δʼ ἂν φονεύσῃ, ἔνοχος ἔσται τῇ κρίσει.22ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ ἔνοχος ἔσται τῇ κρίσει·
21 HKOUSATE hOTI ERREQH TOIS ARXAIOIS OU FONEUSEIS; hOS D' AN FONEUSHi, hENOXOS ESTAI THi KRISEI.  22 EGW DE LEGW hUMIN hOTI PAS hO ORGIZOMENOS TWi ADELFWi AUTOU hENOXOS ESTAI THi KRISEI

george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 5:11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19

Can you give me an other instance where the kind of contrast you cite  is marked by DE? 
Al

On Nov 1, 2009, at 1:56 AM, George F Somsel wrote:

But note that one of the uses of DE is to indicate a contrast which is precisely what we have here:
>
>v. 18 EISPOREUOMENON
>v. 20 EKPOREUOMENON
> george
>gfsomsel
>
>
>… search for truth, hear truth,
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the 
>truth till death.
>
>
>- Jan Hus
>_________
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 9:38:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>
>
>
>On Oct 31, 2009, at 10:52 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>It may be that ELEGEN DE is stated because not only is it at some distance from LEGEI in v. 18 but also because the quoted text is interrupted by the explanation that in saying this καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA -- "declaring all food 'clean'."
>Quite so. Since the quoted text is interrupted one expects that the 
>verb of speaking is re-issued. Hence we have ELEGEN, which makes clear that what follows is again spoken by Jesus. But DE is not unexplained thereby. Moreover, I am not aware that DE is ever used  for the purpose of restating the grammatical subject, something which has, of course, already been done by ELEGEN.  DE is, however, used regularly (a) when there is a change in grammatical subject or (b)  when there is a shift in subject matter. In 7:20 (as in 7:9) neither is the case.  While these two uses of DE can hardly be said to be exhaustive, it remains true nevertheless that the use of DE in v. 20 is consistent with a standard use of this particle, namely, a change in grammatical subject (hence my reading of KAQARIZWN).
> In any case, since you read the text as involving neither of the 
>common uses of DE which I noted, some other explanation of DE would seem called for———and restating of grammatical subject is scarcely an option. All of this is not to say that my reading of KAQARIZWN is correct, but it is to say that your reading needs a better explanation than you have offered.  (There is obviously good reason for regarding Mk 7:19b as a crux interpretum).
>Al
>
>>george
>>gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>… search for truth, hear truth,
>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the 
>>truth till death.
>>
>>
>>- Jan Hus
>>_________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 7:34:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>
>>
>>
>>On Oct 31, 2009, at 10:20 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>Since your reply came back to me in readable form, I must assume that there is a setting in your browser which needs to be changed.  Do you have it set to send and receive UTF-8? Strangely, though, my settings have not changed and it happens only with your recent postings.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I would simply understand ELEGEN DE in v. 20 as a continuation of the 
>>>preceding since it is at some distance from LEGEI in v. 18.Since as in in 7:9, for example, both grammatical subject and topic continue (on your reading) from what precedes DE would seem surprising.
>>Al
>>
>>> george
>>>gfsomsel
>>>
>>>
>>>… search for truth, hear truth,
>>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the 
>>>truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>>- Jan Hus
>>>_________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 7:13:03 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>>
>>>Incidentally, your first version of the text is nothing but squares 
>>>on my screen. I wonder if I am the only subscriber. As for Jesus as 
>>>the subject of both LEGEI and KAQARIZWN,  might a comment on v. 20 ELEGEN DE be in order? Al On Oct 31, 2009, at 9:12 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>
>>>18 καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀσύνετοί ἐστε; οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι πᾶν 
>>>τὸ ἔξωθεν εἰσπορευόμενον εἰς τὸν ἄνθρωπον οὐ δύναται αὐτὸν κοινῶσαι 
>>>19 ὅτι οὐκ εἰσπορεύεται αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν καρδίαν ἀλλʼ εἰς τὴν κοιλίαν, 
>>>καὶ εἰς τὸν ἀφεδρῶνα ἐκπορεύεται, καθαρίζων πάντα τὰ βρώματα;
>>>>18 KAI LEGEI AUTOIS, "hOUTWS KAI hUMEIS ASUNETOI ESTE?  OU NOEITE 
>>>>hOTI ECWQEN EISPOREUOMENON EIS TON ANQRWPON OU DUNATAI AUTON 
>>>>KOINWSAI
>>>>19 hOTI OUK EISPOREUETAI AUTOU EIS THN KARDIAN ALL' EIS THN KOILIAN, KAI EIS TON AFEDRWNA EKPOREUETAI", KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm still inclined to link it to Jesus as the subject of LEGEI.  The sequence would then be KAI LEGEI AUTOIS " . . . ", KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA.
>>>> george
>>>>gfsomsel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>… search for truth, hear truth,
>>>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the 
>>>>truth till death.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>- Jan Hus
>>>>_________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>>>To: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>>>Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; Wieland Willker 
>>>><wie at uni-bremen.de>
>>>>Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 5:44:54 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Mark 7:18-19
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Oct 31, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As much sense as it may make that the KOILIA should be purged/ 
>>>>> cleansed, does it not even so seem odd to no one that we're 
>>>>> talking NOT about "purging the stomach" but rather abut 
>>>>> "purging/purifying all foods." That remains for me the stickler 
>>>>> that renders the reading KAQARIZON insupportable.
>>>>Carl's astute observation tempts me to break my rule of not 
>>>>commenting on the NT unless the LXX is involved. As he notes, the 
>>>>object of KAQARIZW/ON is not KOILIA but PANTA TA BRWMATA. Thus the 
>>>>text is not about purging the abdomen but about purifying all the foodstuffs.
>>>>From that perspective one might then suggest that KAQARIZW (= class.
>>>>KAQAIRW) has to do not with purging or ritual purification but 
>>>>rather with a separating of what is useful from what is waste. So, 
>>>>for example, LSJ (sub KAQAIRW) cites an instance (albeit from ii AD) 
>>>>of winnowing grain, i.e., separating the kernels from the chaff. 
>>>>Like winnowing the human digestive tract might be said to separate 
>>>>the nutrients from the waste (left-over). Both enter the KOILIA but 
>>>>only the latter is excreted.
>>>>
>>>>Why the masculine participle (KAQARIZWN)? While the dash in my NT 
>>>>text reflects, of course, an editorial decision, it seems 
>>>>nonetheless appropriate, given the syntactic interruption. Since 
>>>>ANQRWPOS is clearly the thematic subject of the passage, might 
>>>>ANQRWPOS therefore account for the masculine participle? It is thus 
>>>>ANQWRWPOS, or rather his digestive process that "purifies," i.e., 
>>>>separates the waste from the nutrients.
>>>>
>>>>To be sure, the comment is an aside (an editorial comment on Jesus' 
>>>>words), and not strictly a propos the contrast between what goes 
>>>>into the KOILIA in distinction from what comes out of the KARDIA. 
>>>>Yet, without the aside, might the text be read to suggest that what 
>>>>a person eats simply enters the mouth, passes through the bowels, 
>>>>and is then excreted? Surely the ancients knew better than that!
>>>>One might thus gloss KAQARIZWN PANTA TA BRWMATA as:  "---- seeing 
>>>>that he (ANQRWPOS) purifies (purges?) all foodstuffs."
>>>>Anyway, my two farthings
>>>>Al
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek  B-Greek mailing 
>>>>>list
>>>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>>>21 Cross Street,
>>>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing 
>>>>list B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
>>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>>21 Cross Street,
>>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>>21 Cross Street,
>>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>>
>>
>>
>
>>Albert Pietersma PhD
>21 Cross Street,
>Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
>Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
>Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
>
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm


      
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