[B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John 1:18-revised

Tom Moore tom at katabiblon.com
Wed Nov 4 18:23:55 EST 2009


For some adjectives, the meaning does change. Smyth (1172) says this occurs specifically with "adjectives of place":

Attributive
ARKON -- TO AKRON OROS = the lofty mountain
MESH -- hH MESH AGORA = the central market
ESCATH -- hH ESCATH NHSOS = the farthest island

Predicative
ARKON -- AKRON TO OROS = the top of the mountain
MESH -- MESH hH AGORA = the center of the market
ESCATH -- ESCATH hH NHSOS = the verge of the island

MONOGENHS is not an adjective of place. However, could it still be possible, given the author has already established context in John 1:14 with "MONOGENOUS PARA PATROS", that MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's only begotten?

Regards,
Tom Moore

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John 1:18-revised
>  Sent: Nov 04 '09 22:43
>  
>  Whether it is predicate or attributive, with or without the article, is
>  irrelevant to the point I was making, which is, what difference in
>  meaning or anything else  is there if we consider MONOGENHS
>  an adjective or a noun in apposition?
>  
>  Mark L
>  
>  
>  FWSFOROS MARKOS
>  
>  --- On WED, 11/4/09, TOM MOORE _<TOM at KATABIBLON.COM>_ wrote:
>  
>  From: Tom Moore <tom at katabiblon.com>
>  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John
>  1:18-revised
>  To: "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>, "Mark Lightman"
>  <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 3:28 PM
>  
>  
>  I don't think we can say that MONOGENHS is not in the predicate position,
>  can we?
>  
>  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the presence of an article somewhere
>  in the expression MONOGENHS QEOS would fix MONOGENHS as either attributive
>  or predicative, but in the absence of the article, it can be either.
>  
>  MONOGENHS in the variant "hO MONOGENHS hUIOS" is attributive.
>  MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS hO QEOS" would be predicative.
>  MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS QEOS" is ambiguous.
>  
>  Regards,
>  Tom Moore
>  
>  
>  >  -------Original Message-------
>  >  From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  >  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  >  Sent: Nov 04 '09 20:18
>  >
>  >  Yes, that is a good point.  Thank you. I do not pretend to be an expert
>  Greek scholar, so please tell me if I am wrong, but the difference seems to
>  be that in John 1:18, MONOGENHS is not in the predicate position as your
>  example shows. If  hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS was written  hO AGAQOS BASILEUS, I
>  think the normal understanding would be "the good king" and not "the good
>  one, who is king." However, if it was written as you have it, hO BASILEUS
>  hO AGAQOS, with the definite article before BASILEUS and before the
>  adjective, I believe it could then be understood as "the king, the good
>  one" Therefore, if John 1:18 read hO QEOS hO MONOGENHS one could translate
>  it as God, the One and Only, or God, the Only Begotten," depending on how
>  you understand MONOGENHS, but with it as  hO MONOGENHS QEOS, it seems it
>  should be understood as a simple adjective. (Of course, if we substitute
>  the variant UIOS I do not think anyone would have a problem seeing it as a
>  simple
>  >  adjective modifying UIOS).
>  >
>  >  If we transfer that phrase into a similar verse structure, let us
>  pretend we have hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU. It seems
>  that it should be translated as the “the good king who is in his
>  house,” or “the king, the good one who is in his house.” But if we
>  had hO AGAQOS  BASILEUS  hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU, it seems the only way
>  it could be translated is “the good king who is in his house.” It seems
>  it would stretch the parameters of grammar to say it should be understood
>  as “the good one, who is king in his house,” although, I guess it might
>  be possible, but it does not seem it would be the normal understanding.
>  >
>  >  Yours Truly,
>  >
>  >  B.Harris
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >   ________________________________
>  >  From: Mark Lightman <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lightmanmark@yahoo.com]
>  lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
>  >  To: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  edmishoe at yahoo.com>; Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  >  Cc: [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  >  Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:59:05 AM
>  >  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  >
>  >
>  >  B. Harris  wrote:
>  >
>  >   <Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS
>  >   into apposition with MONOGENHS. It  seems that
>  >   the structure of the sentence would still demand MONOGENHS
>  >   to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing something?>
>  >
>  >  Are not all attributive adjectives really nouns in apposition?
>  >  hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS can always be understood as
>  >  "the king, the good one."  If fact, whether hO BASILEUS
>  >  is really a noun ("the king") or an adjective ("the royal one")
>  >  or a verb ("the one who rules") depends more on your
>  >  starting point than on anything in the Greek text.  Same,
>  >  I think, with MONOGENHS.
>  >
>  >  Mark L
>  >
>  >
>  >  FWSFOROS  MARKOS
>  >
>  >  --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >
>  >  >From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  >  >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  >  >To: "Eddie Mishoe" <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>  >  >Cc: [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  >  >Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009,  8:17 AM
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >It seems what Dr. Wallace is saying, is that the reason for turning hO
>  WN into a relative clause connected with God, “who is God,” or “the
>  one being God,” are the examples in Rev.1:4,8;4:8; 11:16; 17:5. But those
>  verses seem to support the idea that QEOS should not be in apposition. For
>  example, the one example in Rev. 4:8 where the relative clause refers back
>  to Lord God Almighty, “God” and “Almighty” are not anarthrous like
>  the word “God” in John 1:18. Perhaps, if QEOS was not anarthrous hO WN
>  could refer back to God, but since it is anarthrous it seems hO WN is
>  completed by the following prepositional phrase. This seems to be the
>  normal pattern followed by John. It seems in all cases when John introduces
>  a relative clause by the root hO WN and a prepositional phrase is present,
>  the clause is completed by the prepositional phrase (Jn.3:13, 6:46, 9:40,
>  11:31). Thus it  seems the relative clause in Jn. 1:18 is completed by the
>  >  >prepositional phrase, “who is in the bosom of the Father,” and
>  should not be thought to refer back to QEOS – “who is God.”
>  >  >This same structure also seems to be used by other writers (II cor.
>  11:31 col. 4:11 I thess 2:14). It seems that in the New Testament hO WN of
>  the relative clause always is connected to the prepositional phrase when a
>  prepositional phrase is present. Perhaps, the one exception would be Rom.
>  7:13, which could read “the law, which is of sin in my members.”
>  >  >As for the examples of substantive adjectives followed by a noun, it
>  seems to me, unless I am not seeing something, the only one that could
>  clearly apply to John 1:18 would be Gal. 3:9. In that case it seems one
>  could translated John 1:18 as “the one and only, God” or “the Only
>  Begotten, God,” depending on your understanding of monogenes, and still
>  keep the relative clause with the prepositional phrase, but it still seems
>  the simpler translation would to view it as a simple adjective. I wonder if
>  the variant “Son” was the accepted reading, those who believe God is in
>  apposition to MONOGENES would believe Son should be in apposition to
>  MONOGENHS from the same grammatical point of view?
>  >  >Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS into apposition
>  with MONOGENHS. It  seems that the structure of the sentence would still
>  demand MONOGENHS to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing
>  something?  Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
>  >  >Sincerely,
>  >  >B. Harris
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >________________________________
>  >  >From: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
>  edmishoe at yahoo.com>
>  >  >To: [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  >  >Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:43:30 PM
>  >  >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >B. Harris:
>  >  >
>  >  >This may be of help to you on this issue. It is the translator's note
>  in the NET Bible at this passage. Dr. Wallace, the author of this note, has
>  written an article on this subject also where he interacts more with Dr.
>  Ehrman's position. In short, the answer to your main question is, "Yes,
>  QEOS stands in apposition to MONGENHS.
>  >  >
>  >  >tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo",
>  “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh"
>  Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter
>  would have differentiated the readings in the mss , since both words would
>  have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there
>  are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they
>  read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss , especially the later ones
>  (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75
>  א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous
>  μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular
>  θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous
>  θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The
>  external  evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός.
>  Internally, although
>  >  >υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much
>  more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other
>  reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found
>  υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes
>  would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since
>  μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title
>  (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more
>  difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense
>  to see the word θεόςas in apposition to μονογενής, and the
>  participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect
>  three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The
>  Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible
>  and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately
>  by a noun that agrees in
>  >  >gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is
>  an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun
>  of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as
>  Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since
>  it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might
>  well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective
>  substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already
>  moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke
>  9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881
>  s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a
>  substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete
>  concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The  modern
>  translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several
>  things should be noted:
>  >  >μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,”
>  “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός
>  is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in
>  1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the
>  Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.”
>  Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even
>  more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together
>  leads to the translation given in the text.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >Anything discussed further on this may get into theology rather than
>  syntax.
>  >  >
>  >  >Eddie Mishoe
>  >  >Pastor
>  >  >
>  >  >--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Blue Meeksbay  <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >>From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
>  bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
>  >  >>Subject: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
>  John 1:18-revised
>  >  >>To: [LINK:
>  http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
>  b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  >  >>Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:24 PM
>  >  >>
>  >  >>
>  >  >>I have noticed some believe QEOS should be seen in apposition to
>  MONOGENHS in John 1:18. This seems to me to be an unusual grammatical
>  construction.
>  >  >>If QEOS was to be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in this verse,
>  would not it have normally been used in a relative clause or, perhaps, have
>  been preceded by a pronoun, as “Saviour” is preceded by “our,” in
>  “God our Saviour” in Jude 1:25? Then John 1:18 would read “the One
>  and Only, our God,” or the "Only Begotten, our God," depending on one's
>  understanding.  Or if MONOGENHS is supposed to be viewed as a substantive,
>  would not it have been normal to write QEOS with the definite article as is
>  commonly done in the LXX (e.g. Lord God – KURIOSO QEOS)?  If John wants
>  us to view QEOS in apposition to MONOGENHS, it seems he is using an unusual
>  construction. It seems the simpler translation would be to understand
>  MONOGENHS as an adjective modifying “QEOS,” so that it would read, "the
>  One and Only God," or the "Only Begotten God," according to one's
>  preference. Are  there any thoughts as to this issue, or are there any
>  other examples
>  >  >>by any other writers who use a construction like this, but in a verse
>  with less ambiguity?
>  >  >>Yours Truly,
>  >  >>B. Harris
>  >  >>P.S. Please excuse my earlier email. I did not fully understand the
>  protocols. I hope this one is done correctly.
>  >  >>
>  >  >>
>  >  >>
>  >  >>---
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