[B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in John 1:18-revised
John Sanders
john.franklin.sanders at gmail.com
Wed Nov 4 19:21:02 EST 2009
Tom Moore wrote:
"MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's only begotten?"
MONOGENHS and QEOS are in the same case. Using the same sense and
terminology you used, it would need be, I think, "only begotten is God"
using the same word order as Greek. For my part, I would prefer the
attributive position becasue of the context.
John Sanders
Suzhou, China
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:23 AM, Tom Moore <tom at katabiblon.com> wrote:
> For some adjectives, the meaning does change. Smyth (1172) says this occurs
> specifically with "adjectives of place":
>
> Attributive
> ARKON -- TO AKRON OROS = the lofty mountain
> MESH -- hH MESH AGORA = the central market
> ESCATH -- hH ESCATH NHSOS = the farthest island
>
> Predicative
> ARKON -- AKRON TO OROS = the top of the mountain
> MESH -- MESH hH AGORA = the center of the market
> ESCATH -- ESCATH hH NHSOS = the verge of the island
>
> MONOGENHS is not an adjective of place. However, could it still be
> possible, given the author has already established context in John 1:14 with
> "MONOGENOUS PARA PATROS", that MONOGENHS (pred.) QEOS means God's only
> begotten?
>
> Regards,
> Tom Moore
>
> > -------Original Message-------
> > From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
> John 1:18-revised
> > Sent: Nov 04 '09 22:43
> >
> > Whether it is predicate or attributive, with or without the article, is
> > irrelevant to the point I was making, which is, what difference in
> > meaning or anything else is there if we consider MONOGENHS
> > an adjective or a noun in apposition?
> >
> > Mark L
> >
> >
> > FWSFOROS MARKOS
> >
> > --- On WED, 11/4/09, TOM MOORE _<TOM at KATABIBLON.COM>_ wrote:
> >
> > From: Tom Moore <tom at katabiblon.com>
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
> John
> > 1:18-revised
> > To: "Blue Meeksbay" <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>, "Mark Lightman"
> > <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> > Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 3:28 PM
> >
> >
> > I don't think we can say that MONOGENHS is not in the predicate
> position,
> > can we?
> >
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the presence of an article somewhere
> > in the expression MONOGENHS QEOS would fix MONOGENHS as either
> attributive
> > or predicative, but in the absence of the article, it can be either.
> >
> > MONOGENHS in the variant "hO MONOGENHS hUIOS" is attributive.
> > MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS hO QEOS" would be predicative.
> > MONOGENHS in "MONOGENHS QEOS" is ambiguous.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tom Moore
> >
> >
> > > -------Original Message-------
> > > From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
> > John 1:18-revised
> > > Sent: Nov 04 '09 20:18
> > >
> > > Yes, that is a good point. Thank you. I do not pretend to be an
> expert
> > Greek scholar, so please tell me if I am wrong, but the difference seems
> to
> > be that in John 1:18, MONOGENHS is not in the predicate position as your
> > example shows. If hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS was written hO AGAQOS
> BASILEUS, I
> > think the normal understanding would be "the good king" and not "the
> good
> > one, who is king." However, if it was written as you have it, hO
> BASILEUS
> > hO AGAQOS, with the definite article before BASILEUS and before the
> > adjective, I believe it could then be understood as "the king, the good
> > one" Therefore, if John 1:18 read hO QEOS hO MONOGENHS one could
> translate
> > it as God, the One and Only, or God, the Only Begotten," depending on
> how
> > you understand MONOGENHS, but with it as hO MONOGENHS QEOS, it seems it
> > should be understood as a simple adjective. (Of course, if we substitute
> > the variant UIOS I do not think anyone would have a problem seeing it as
> a
> > simple
> > > adjective modifying UIOS).
> > >
> > > If we transfer that phrase into a similar verse structure, let us
> > pretend we have hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU. It
> seems
> > that it should be translated as the “the good king who is in his
> > house,” or “the king, the good one who is in his house.” But if we
> > had hO AGAQOS BASILEUS hO WN EIS TON OIKON AUTOU, it seems the only
> way
> > it could be translated is “the good king who is in his house.” It seems
> > it would stretch the parameters of grammar to say it should be
> understood
> > as “the good one, who is king in his house,” although, I guess it might
> > be possible, but it does not seem it would be the normal understanding.
> > >
> > > Yours Truly,
> > >
> > > B.Harris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Mark Lightman <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lightmanmark@yahoo.com]
> > lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> > > To: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
> > edmishoe at yahoo.com>; Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> > > Cc: [LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
> > b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Sent: Wed, November 4, 2009 10:59:05 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
> > John 1:18-revised
> > >
> > >
> > > B. Harris wrote:
> > >
> > > <Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS
> > > into apposition with MONOGENHS. It seems that
> > > the structure of the sentence would still demand MONOGENHS
> > > to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing something?>
> > >
> > > Are not all attributive adjectives really nouns in apposition?
> > > hO BASILEUS hO AGAQOS can always be understood as
> > > "the king, the good one." If fact, whether hO BASILEUS
> > > is really a noun ("the king") or an adjective ("the royal one")
> > > or a verb ("the one who rules") depends more on your
> > > starting point than on anything in the Greek text. Same,
> > > I think, with MONOGENHS.
> > >
> > > Mark L
> > >
> > >
> > > FWSFOROS MARKOS
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
> in
> > John 1:18-revised
> > > >To: "Eddie Mishoe" <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
> > edmishoe at yahoo.com>
> > > >Cc: [LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
> > b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 8:17 AM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >It seems what Dr. Wallace is saying, is that the reason for turning
> hO
> > WN into a relative clause connected with God, “who is God,” or “the
> > one being God,” are the examples in Rev.1:4,8;4:8; 11:16; 17:5. But
> those
> > verses seem to support the idea that QEOS should not be in apposition.
> For
> > example, the one example in Rev. 4:8 where the relative clause refers
> back
> > to Lord God Almighty, “God” and “Almighty” are not anarthrous like
> > the word “God” in John 1:18. Perhaps, if QEOS was not anarthrous hO WN
> > could refer back to God, but since it is anarthrous it seems hO WN is
> > completed by the following prepositional phrase. This seems to be the
> > normal pattern followed by John. It seems in all cases when John
> introduces
> > a relative clause by the root hO WN and a prepositional phrase is
> present,
> > the clause is completed by the prepositional phrase (Jn.3:13, 6:46,
> 9:40,
> > 11:31). Thus it seems the relative clause in Jn. 1:18 is completed by
> the
> > > >prepositional phrase, “who is in the bosom of the Father,” and
> > should not be thought to refer back to QEOS – “who is God.”
> > > >This same structure also seems to be used by other writers (II cor.
> > 11:31 col. 4:11 I thess 2:14). It seems that in the New Testament hO WN
> of
> > the relative clause always is connected to the prepositional phrase when
> a
> > prepositional phrase is present. Perhaps, the one exception would be
> Rom.
> > 7:13, which could read “the law, which is of sin in my members.”
> > > >As for the examples of substantive adjectives followed by a noun, it
> > seems to me, unless I am not seeing something, the only one that could
> > clearly apply to John 1:18 would be Gal. 3:9. In that case it seems one
> > could translated John 1:18 as “the one and only, God” or “the Only
> > Begotten, God,” depending on your understanding of monogenes, and still
> > keep the relative clause with the prepositional phrase, but it still
> seems
> > the simpler translation would to view it as a simple adjective. I wonder
> if
> > the variant “Son” was the accepted reading, those who believe God is in
> > apposition to MONOGENES would believe Son should be in apposition to
> > MONOGENHS from the same grammatical point of view?
> > > >Anyway, it still seems a bit artificial to turn QEOS into apposition
> > with MONOGENHS. It seems that the structure of the sentence would still
> > demand MONOGENHS to be an adjective modifying QEOS. Am I still missing
> > something? Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
> > > >Sincerely,
> > > >B. Harris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >________________________________
> > > >From: Eddie Mishoe <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edmishoe@yahoo.com]
> > edmishoe at yahoo.com>
> > > >To: [LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
> > b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org; Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> > > >Sent: Tue, November 3, 2009 7:43:30 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS
> in
> > John 1:18-revised
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >B. Harris:
> > > >
> > > >This may be of help to you on this issue. It is the translator's
> note
> > in the NET Bible at this passage. Dr. Wallace, the author of this note,
> has
> > written an article on this subject also where he interacts more with Dr.
> > Ehrman's position. In short, the answer to your main question is, "Yes,
> > QEOS stands in apposition to MONGENHS.
> > > >
> > > >tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo",
> > “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh"
> > Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter
> > would have differentiated the readings in the mss , since both words
> would
> > have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there
> > are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether
> they
> > read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss , especially the later ones
> > (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75
> > א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous
> > μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular
> > θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous
> > θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The
> > external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός.
> > Internally, although
> > > >υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much
> > more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other
> > reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found
> > υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes
> > would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since
> > μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title
> > (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more
> > difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most
> sense
> > to see the word θεόςas in apposition to μονογενής, and the
> > participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect
> > three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The
> > Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly
> impossible
> > and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed
> immediately
> > by a noun that agrees in
> > > >gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is
> > an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a
> noun
> > of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as
> > Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since
> > it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might
> > well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective
> > substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already
> > moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke
> > 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881
> > s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a
> > substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete
> > concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The
> modern
> > translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV.
> Several
> > things should be noted:
> > > >μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,”
> > “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός
> > is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in
> > 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the
> > Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.”
> > Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even
> > more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together
> > leads to the translation given in the text.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Anything discussed further on this may get into theology rather than
> > syntax.
> > > >
> > > >Eddie Mishoe
> > > >Pastor
> > > >
> > > >--- On Tue, 11/3/09, Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>From: Blue Meeksbay <[LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bluemeeksbay@yahoo.com]
> > bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
> > > >>Subject: [B-Greek] Can QEOS be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in
> > John 1:18-revised
> > > >>To: [LINK:
> > http://us.mc636.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org]
> > b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > >>Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 5:24 PM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>I have noticed some believe QEOS should be seen in apposition to
> > MONOGENHS in John 1:18. This seems to me to be an unusual grammatical
> > construction.
> > > >>If QEOS was to be used in apposition to MONOGENHS in this verse,
> > would not it have normally been used in a relative clause or, perhaps,
> have
> > been preceded by a pronoun, as “Saviour” is preceded by “our,” in
> > “God our Saviour” in Jude 1:25? Then John 1:18 would read “the One
> > and Only, our God,” or the "Only Begotten, our God," depending on one's
> > understanding. Or if MONOGENHS is supposed to be viewed as a
> substantive,
> > would not it have been normal to write QEOS with the definite article as
> is
> > commonly done in the LXX (e.g. Lord God – KURIOSO QEOS)? If John wants
> > us to view QEOS in apposition to MONOGENHS, it seems he is using an
> unusual
> > construction. It seems the simpler translation would be to understand
> > MONOGENHS as an adjective modifying “QEOS,” so that it would read, "the
> > One and Only God," or the "Only Begotten God," according to one's
> > preference. Are there any thoughts as to this issue, or are there any
> > other examples
> > > >>by any other writers who use a construction like this, but in a
> verse
> > with less ambiguity?
> > > >>Yours Truly,
> > > >>B. Harris
> > > >>P.S. Please excuse my earlier email. I did not fully understand the
> > protocols. I hope this one is done correctly.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>---
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---
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--
John Sanders
Suzhou, China
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