[B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 9 11:44:48 EST 2009
Iver wrote:
Further to the question of combining prepositional phrases, I have a different
understanding of John 21:11 than the RSV and all subsequent English versions
that depend more or less on the RSV.
The text is:
ἀνέβη οὖν Σίμων Πέτρος καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν
ANEBH OUN SIMWN PETROS KAI hEILKUSEN TO DIKTUON EIS THN GHN
So Simon Peter went up and dragged the net towards/onto the shore
One of the problems is ANABAINW. Of the 82 occurrences in the NT, about 42% have
an EIS phrase as the destination, but most of these describe going up to
Jerusalem or the temple there. About 26% have no explicit destination, but it is
understood from context what it is. In several cases (12%) EK or APO is used to
indicate where the movement starts off from (the destination is then implicit).
In addition, there are a few cases with other prepositions like PROS, EPI and EN
and a few location words like hWDE.
My suggestion is that the underlying structure would have a second EIS
preposition as in:
ἀνέβη οὖν Σίμων Πέτρος [εἰς τὴν γῆν] καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν
ANEBH OUN SIMWN PETROS [EIS THN GHN] KAI hEILKUSEN TO DIKTUON EIS THN GHN
In this case, the two EIS phrases would be exactly identical, and that is both
superfluous and bad style, so the first one is deleted and the two indicative
verbs share the second one.
Another option for the writer might have been to use a present participle of
hELKW rather than the indicative aorist. But John often prefers coordinated
indicatives for participles, probably because of Semitic influence.
Another possible reason for keeping the second EIS phrase in v. 11 could be to
focus on the net now being dragged onto land, when 7 fishermen could not pull it
into the boat a few minutes earlier.
In any case, I do not consider it warranted by grammar or context to import the
destination "boat" into v. 11 as RSV did. Trying to drag the net onto shore when
standing in the boat makes no sense. If he was already on the shore, then why
enter the boat? And it would be physically impossible for one person to pull it
into the boat considering the weight of the net and the fish. The LB restatement
of the KJV has a frantic attempt of making sense out of it by changing "went up"
to "went out", but going out into the water from land is KATABAINW.
Of course, I realize that people make these frantic efforts because they assume
that Peter swam to shore even though verses 7-10 do not say or imply that he
did. How you interpret one verse to a large extent determines how you interpret
the following verses. For instance, NIV erroneously renders HLQON in v. 8 as
"followed".
Any comments?
Iver Larsen
------------------------------------------------------
It seems the observation of Iver concerning ANEBH makes sense, since he shows it is usually used with a prepositional phrase.
With this in mind, one thing that might shed more light on the situation is that apparently more than one net was involved. In verse 6 it says, EBALOV, they cast. This shows they must “not” have been using a “cast net” which is cast by one man - AMFBLHSATRON (cf. Mark 1:16-18), but what is rather known as a “trammel” net, which, I understand, is still used today. This was a large net which could not be handled by one man, but was handled by many. However, in concert with this net is also used the cast net, which can be handled by one man, and which retrieves those fish not caught by the trammel.
When it says that Peter drew up the net to the land and it was not rent by the 153 fishes, this must refer to the “cast net” because that is the only way to explain ESCISQH. The trammel net could easily handle 153 fish with no fear of tearing, but that would not be the case for a cast net. Therefore, Peter, it seems, only retrieved fish from the “cast net” that was used in concert with the trammel net.
Therefore, if Peter cast himself into the sea to handle the “cast net” and the others dragged in the trammel net, maybe, when the others got to shore and were getting out (APEBHSAN) of the boat, Peter also was coming out (ANEBH) of the water with the “cast net” right after them. So, perhaps, the exuberance of Peter was not that he swam to shore ahead of the other disciples, but that he wanted to quickly complete the fishing operation in “obedience” to Jesus command, so he cast himself into the water to retrieve the cast net. The only thing that doesn’t make sense is why he threw on his upper garments, but then that doesn’t make sense for swimming either.
The only other thing, I might mention is that sometimes it is assumed that they were on some isolated part of the lake. Perhaps, they were fishing in an area or village that had a dock or rock jetty. If the fishing boats would tie up to this jetty or dock and the cast net was also tied up to the side of the dock or boat, perhaps, for those who prefer to believe Peter did swim in ahead of the others and had already gotten to shore, the “going up” means leaving the shore, getting up on the dock or jetty, getting the cast net, untying it, and then dragging it to the shore.??
Sincerely,
B.Harris
________________________________
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: BG <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 9:46:09 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
Further to the question of combining prepositional phrases, I have a different
understanding of John 21:11 than the RSV and all subsequent English versions
that depend more or less on the RSV.
The text is:
ἀνέβη οὖν Σίμων Πέτρος καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν
ANEBH OUN SIMWN PETROS KAI hEILKUSEN TO DIKTUON EIS THN GHN
So Simon Peter went up and dragged the net towards/onto the shore
One of the problems is ANABAINW. Of the 82 occurrences in the NT, about 42% have
an EIS phrase as the destination, but most of these describe going up to
Jerusalem or the temple there. About 26% have no explicit destination, but it is
understood from context what it is. In several cases (12%) EK or APO is used to
indicate where the movement starts off from (the destination is then implicit).
In addition, there are a few cases with other prepositions like PROS, EPI and EN
and a few location words like hWDE.
My suggestion is that the underlying structure would have a second EIS
preposition as in:
ἀνέβη οὖν Σίμων Πέτρος [εἰς τὴν γῆν] καὶ εἵλκυσεν τὸ δίκτυον εἰς τὴν γῆν
ANEBH OUN SIMWN PETROS [EIS THN GHN] KAI hEILKUSEN TO DIKTUON EIS THN GHN
In this case, the two EIS phrases would be exactly identical, and that is both
superfluous and bad style, so the first one is deleted and the two indicative
verbs share the second one.
Another option for the writer might have been to use a present participle of
hELKW rather than the indicative aorist. But John often prefers coordinated
indicatives for participles, probably because of Semitic influence.
Another possible reason for keeping the second EIS phrase in v. 11 could be to
focus on the net now being dragged onto land, when 7 fishermen could not pull it
into the boat a few minutes earlier.
In any case, I do not consider it warranted by grammar or context to import the
destination "boat" into v. 11 as RSV did. Trying to drag the net onto shore when
standing in the boat makes no sense. If he was already on the shore, then why
enter the boat? And it would be physically impossible for one person to pull it
into the boat considering the weight of the net and the fish. The LB restatement
of the KJV has a frantic attempt of making sense out of it by changing "went up"
to "went out", but going out into the water from land is KATABAINW.
Of course, I realize that people make these frantic efforts because they assume
that Peter swam to shore even though verses 7-10 do not say or imply that he
did. How you interpret one verse to a large extent determines how you interpret
the following verses. For instance, NIV erroneously renders HLQON in v. 8 as
"followed".
Any comments?
Iver Larsen
---
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