[B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
Blue Meeksbay
bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com
Tue Nov 10 12:40:07 EST 2009
Hi Iver - You had some good points, especially about BALLW, although I do not know if it would necessarily preclude the use of the trammel net. Could not BALLW still be used to indicate the spreading out of the trammel net? I did notice the absence of the plural, but does that absolutely mean only one net was used? It would seem odd for 7 men to go fishing with a one cast net.
That was also my understanding that the net was tied to the boat and Peter followed along in the water at the back of the boat (if one assumes the ANEBH was coming out of the water, rather than going up to a dock or jetty). I just assumed that because of the load of fish caught in the trammel net, there would be no room for Peter and the cast net so he stayed in the water holding on to the boat, or if the water was as shallow as you say, perhaps, helping by pushing the boat.
I am going to be gone for awhile but it will be interesting to see how this thread turns out.
Yours Truly,B.Harris
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From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 7:11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
----- Original Message ----- From: Blue Meeksbay
To: Iver Larsen
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 9. november 2009 19:44
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
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It seems the observation of Iver concerning ANEBH makes sense, since he shows it is usually used with a prepositional phrase.
With this in mind, one thing that might shed more light on the situation is that apparently more than one net was involved. In verse 6 it says, EBALOV, they cast. This shows they must “not” have been using a “cast net” which is cast by one man - AMFBLHSATRON (cf. Mark 1:16-18), but what is rather known as a “trammel” net, which, I understand, is still used today. This was a large net which could not be handled by one man, but was handled by many. However, in concert with this net is also used the cast net, which can be handled by one man, and which retrieves those fish not caught by the trammel.
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Iver:
I don't think this is a correct assumption, based ont the Greek text. There were three kinds of nets used, the seine (dragnet), the trammel net and the castnet. The trammel net is referred to in Mat 4:20-21, Mark 1:18-19 and Luke 5:2-6. In all cases, the Greek word is in plural DIKTUA which indicates the trammel net which was made of three layers of nets standing as a wall in the water about 6 feet wide/deep, touching the bottom. They were generally made up of 5 units, each of which was 35 m long (according to Mendel Nun' booklet about fishing in Lake Galilee.) In J ohn 21, the word for net is in the singular and clearly refers to a castnet rather than a trammel or seine net. A trammel net is lowered - CALAW - as in Luke 5:5-6, not thrown - BALLW - as in John 21:6.
V. 6 BALETE EIS TA DEXIA MERH TOU PLOIOU TO DIKTUON...EBALON OUN.
Jesus is speaking to the fishermen without specifying which of them were to throw out the net. The writer uses the plural EBALON, which is a common way of not specifying who did it. It does not have to be an effort done by more than one person. The indefinite Greek third person plural is often best translated by a passive in English: the net was thrown out as directed. (It might well have been Peter, but we are not told.)
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When it says that Peter drew up the net to the land and it was not rent by the 153 fishes, this must refer to the “cast net” because that is the only way to explain ESCISQH. The trammel net could easily handle 153 fish with no fear of tearing, but that would not be the case for a cast net. Therefore, Peter, it seems, only retrieved fish from the “cast net” that was used in concert with the trammel net.
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Iver: There is no need to introduce a supposed trammel net, since it is not mentioned at all in the text.
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Therefore, if Peter cast himself into the sea to handle the “cast net” and the others dragged in the trammel net, maybe, when the others got to shore and were getting out (APEBHSAN) of the boat, Peter also was coming out (ANEBH) of the water with the “cast net” right after them. So, perhaps, the exuberance of Peter was not that he swam to shore ahead of the other disciples, but that he wanted to quickly complete the fishing operation in “obedience” to Jesus command, so he cast himself into the water to retrieve the cast net. The only thing that doesn’t make sense is why he threw on his upper garments, but then that doesn’t make sense for swimming either.
The only other thing, I might mention is that sometimes it is assumed that they were on some isolated part of the lake. Perhaps, they were fishing in an area or village that had a dock or rock jetty. If the fishing boats would tie up to this jetty or dock and the cast net was also tied up to the side of the dock or boat, perhaps, for those who prefer to believe Peter did swim in ahead of the others and had already gotten to shore, the “going up” means leaving the shore, getting up on the dock or jetty, getting the cast net, untying it, and then dragging it to the shore.??
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Iver: Since the cast net filled with fish was too heavy for 7 men to haul into the boat, there is no way Peter could retrive it on his own and bring it to shore. The natural thing to do when they failed to haul it inside was to tie it to the side of the boat and drag it along as they rowed the boat to shore. It stayed tied there all the time until Peter dragged it a bit further up the shore to secure it better.
In the area where the Jordan flows into the lake, the slope is very gradual, and what is a gradual slope on land today was probably covered by water at that time. The reason for girding up is in my view to avoid tripping as he walked on the bottom, making sure that the net was not torn by getting stuck on a rock as it was pulled to land tied to the side of the boat. Even if he might not be able to reach bottom, when he jumped into the water, he would be able to reach later in more shallow water.
Iver Larsen
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