[B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Nov 10 13:33:54 EST 2009


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Blue Meeksbay
To: Iver Larsen
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 10. november 2009 20:40
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11


Hi Iver - You had some good points, especially about BALLW, although I do not 
know if it would necessarily preclude the use of the trammel net. Could not 
BALLW still be used to indicate the spreading out of the trammel net? I did 
notice the absence of the plural, but does that absolutely mean only one net was 
used? It would seem odd for 7 men to go fishing with a one cast net.

That was also my understanding that the net was tied to the boat and Peter 
followed along in the water at the back of the boat (if one assumes the ANEBH 
was coming out of the water, rather than going up to a dock or jetty). I just 
assumed that because of the load of fish caught in the trammel net, there would 
be no room for Peter and the cast net so he stayed in the water holding on to 
the boat, or if the water was as shallow as you say, perhaps, helping by pushing 
the boat.

I am going to be gone for awhile but it will be interesting to see how this 
thread turns out.

Yours Truly,
B.Harris
------------------------
Unless there is more discussion of the Greek text itself, I think this thread 
needs to stop. If you think it was odd for 7 fishermen to be using one cast nest 
only, why do you assume that they had not been using more than one net during 
the night without catching anything? We don't know. Jesus asked them to cast one 
net, and then it turned out that 7 fishermen was too little! They couldn't pull 
the net up in the boat.

To Michael, I would just say: Look up the word DIKTUON in the NT and see how it 
is used.

Iver Larsen













o.org
Sent: 9. november 2009 19:44
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11

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It seems the observation of Iver concerning ANEBH makes sense, since he shows it 
is usually used with a prepositional phrase.
With this in mind, one thing that might shed more light on the situation is that 
apparently more than one net was involved. In verse 6 it says, EBALOV, they 
cast. This shows they must “not” have been using a “cast net” which is cast by 
one man -  AMFBLHSATRON (cf. Mark 1:16-18), but what is rather known as a 
“trammel” net, which, I understand, is still used today. This was a large net 
which could not be handled by one man, but was handled by many. However, in 
concert with this net is also used the cast net, which can be handled by one 
man, and which retrieves those fish not caught by the trammel.
------------------
Iver:
I don't think this is a correct assumption, based ont the Greek text. There were 
three kinds of nets used, the seine (dragnet), the trammel net and the castnet. 
The trammel net is referred to in Mat 4:20-21, Mark 1:18-19 and Luke 5:2-6. In 
all cases, the Greek word is in plural DIKTUA which indicates the trammel net 
which was made of three layers of nets standing as a wall in the water about 6 
feet wide/deep, touching the bottom. They were generally made up of 5 units, 
each of which was 35 m long (according to Mendel Nun' booklet about fishing in 
Lake Galilee.) In J ohn 21, the word for net is in the singular and clearly 
refers to a castnet rather than a trammel or seine net. A trammel net is 
lowered - CALAW - as in Luke 5:5-6, not thrown - BALLW - as in John 21:6.
V. 6 BALETE EIS TA DEXIA MERH TOU PLOIOU TO DIKTUON...EBALON OUN.
Jesus is speaking to the fishermen without specifying which of them were to 
throw out the net. The writer uses the plural EBALON, which is a common way of 
not specifying who did it. It does not have to be an effort done by more than 
one person. The indefinite Greek third person plural is often best translated by 
a passive in English: the net was thrown out as directed. (It might well have 
been Peter, but we are not told.)
--------------------------

When it says that Peter drew up the net to the land and it was not rent by the 
153 fishes, this must refer to the “cast net” because that is the only way to 
explain ESCISQH. The trammel net could easily handle 153 fish with no fear of 
tearing, but that would not be the case for a cast net. Therefore, Peter, it 
seems, only retrieved fish from the “cast net” that was used in concert with the 
trammel net.
------------------
Iver: There is no need to introduce a supposed trammel net, since it is not 
mentioned at all in the text.
----------------

Therefore, if Peter cast himself into the sea to handle the “cast net” and the 
others dragged in the trammel net, maybe, when  the others got to shore and were 
getting out (APEBHSAN) of the boat, Peter also was coming out (ANEBH) of the 
water with the “cast net” right after them. So, perhaps, the exuberance of Peter 
was not that he swam to shore ahead of the other disciples, but that he wanted 
to quickly complete the fishing operation in “obedience” to Jesus command, so he 
cast himself into the water to retrieve the cast net. The only thing that doesn’t 
make sense is why he threw on his upper garments, but then that doesn’t make 
sense for swimming either.
The only other thing, I might mention is that sometimes it is assumed that they 
were on some isolated part of the lake. Perhaps, they were fishing in an area or 
village that had a dock or rock jetty. If the fishing  boats would tie up to 
this jetty or dock and the cast net was also tied up to the side of the dock or 
boat, perhaps, for those who prefer to believe Peter did swim in ahead of the 
others and had already gotten to shore, the “going up” means leaving the shore, 
getting up on the dock or jetty, getting the cast net, untying it, and then 
dragging it to the shore.??
-------------------------------
Iver: Since the cast net filled with fish was too heavy for 7 men to haul into 
the boat, there is no way Peter could retrive it on his own and bring it to 
shore. The natural thing to do when they failed to haul it inside was to tie it 
to the side of the boat and drag it along as they rowed the boat to shore. It 
stayed tied there all the time until Peter dragged it a bit further up the shore 
to secure it better.
In the area where the Jordan flows into the lake, the slope is very gradual, and 
what is a gradual slope on land today was probably covered by water at that 
time. The reason for girding up is in my view to avoid tripping as he walked on 
the bottom, making sure that the net was not torn by getting stuck on a rock as 
it was pulled to land tied to the side of the boat. Even if he might not be able 
to reach bottom, when he jumped into the water, he would be able to reach later 
in more shallow water.

Iver Larsen 




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