[B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Nov 10 13:33:54 EST 2009
----- Original Message -----
From: Blue Meeksbay
To: Iver Larsen
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 10. november 2009 20:40
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
Hi Iver - You had some good points, especially about BALLW, although I do not
know if it would necessarily preclude the use of the trammel net. Could not
BALLW still be used to indicate the spreading out of the trammel net? I did
notice the absence of the plural, but does that absolutely mean only one net was
used? It would seem odd for 7 men to go fishing with a one cast net.
That was also my understanding that the net was tied to the boat and Peter
followed along in the water at the back of the boat (if one assumes the ANEBH
was coming out of the water, rather than going up to a dock or jetty). I just
assumed that because of the load of fish caught in the trammel net, there would
be no room for Peter and the cast net so he stayed in the water holding on to
the boat, or if the water was as shallow as you say, perhaps, helping by pushing
the boat.
I am going to be gone for awhile but it will be interesting to see how this
thread turns out.
Yours Truly,
B.Harris
------------------------
Unless there is more discussion of the Greek text itself, I think this thread
needs to stop. If you think it was odd for 7 fishermen to be using one cast nest
only, why do you assume that they had not been using more than one net during
the night without catching anything? We don't know. Jesus asked them to cast one
net, and then it turned out that 7 fishermen was too little! They couldn't pull
the net up in the boat.
To Michael, I would just say: Look up the word DIKTUON in the NT and see how it
is used.
Iver Larsen
o.org
Sent: 9. november 2009 19:44
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The combination of prepositional phrases - John 21:11
------------------------------------------------------
It seems the observation of Iver concerning ANEBH makes sense, since he shows it
is usually used with a prepositional phrase.
With this in mind, one thing that might shed more light on the situation is that
apparently more than one net was involved. In verse 6 it says, EBALOV, they
cast. This shows they must “not” have been using a “cast net” which is cast by
one man - AMFBLHSATRON (cf. Mark 1:16-18), but what is rather known as a
“trammel” net, which, I understand, is still used today. This was a large net
which could not be handled by one man, but was handled by many. However, in
concert with this net is also used the cast net, which can be handled by one
man, and which retrieves those fish not caught by the trammel.
------------------
Iver:
I don't think this is a correct assumption, based ont the Greek text. There were
three kinds of nets used, the seine (dragnet), the trammel net and the castnet.
The trammel net is referred to in Mat 4:20-21, Mark 1:18-19 and Luke 5:2-6. In
all cases, the Greek word is in plural DIKTUA which indicates the trammel net
which was made of three layers of nets standing as a wall in the water about 6
feet wide/deep, touching the bottom. They were generally made up of 5 units,
each of which was 35 m long (according to Mendel Nun' booklet about fishing in
Lake Galilee.) In J ohn 21, the word for net is in the singular and clearly
refers to a castnet rather than a trammel or seine net. A trammel net is
lowered - CALAW - as in Luke 5:5-6, not thrown - BALLW - as in John 21:6.
V. 6 BALETE EIS TA DEXIA MERH TOU PLOIOU TO DIKTUON...EBALON OUN.
Jesus is speaking to the fishermen without specifying which of them were to
throw out the net. The writer uses the plural EBALON, which is a common way of
not specifying who did it. It does not have to be an effort done by more than
one person. The indefinite Greek third person plural is often best translated by
a passive in English: the net was thrown out as directed. (It might well have
been Peter, but we are not told.)
--------------------------
When it says that Peter drew up the net to the land and it was not rent by the
153 fishes, this must refer to the “cast net” because that is the only way to
explain ESCISQH. The trammel net could easily handle 153 fish with no fear of
tearing, but that would not be the case for a cast net. Therefore, Peter, it
seems, only retrieved fish from the “cast net” that was used in concert with the
trammel net.
------------------
Iver: There is no need to introduce a supposed trammel net, since it is not
mentioned at all in the text.
----------------
Therefore, if Peter cast himself into the sea to handle the “cast net” and the
others dragged in the trammel net, maybe, when the others got to shore and were
getting out (APEBHSAN) of the boat, Peter also was coming out (ANEBH) of the
water with the “cast net” right after them. So, perhaps, the exuberance of Peter
was not that he swam to shore ahead of the other disciples, but that he wanted
to quickly complete the fishing operation in “obedience” to Jesus command, so he
cast himself into the water to retrieve the cast net. The only thing that doesn’t
make sense is why he threw on his upper garments, but then that doesn’t make
sense for swimming either.
The only other thing, I might mention is that sometimes it is assumed that they
were on some isolated part of the lake. Perhaps, they were fishing in an area or
village that had a dock or rock jetty. If the fishing boats would tie up to
this jetty or dock and the cast net was also tied up to the side of the dock or
boat, perhaps, for those who prefer to believe Peter did swim in ahead of the
others and had already gotten to shore, the “going up” means leaving the shore,
getting up on the dock or jetty, getting the cast net, untying it, and then
dragging it to the shore.??
-------------------------------
Iver: Since the cast net filled with fish was too heavy for 7 men to haul into
the boat, there is no way Peter could retrive it on his own and bring it to
shore. The natural thing to do when they failed to haul it inside was to tie it
to the side of the boat and drag it along as they rowed the boat to shore. It
stayed tied there all the time until Peter dragged it a bit further up the shore
to secure it better.
In the area where the Jordan flows into the lake, the slope is very gradual, and
what is a gradual slope on land today was probably covered by water at that
time. The reason for girding up is in my view to avoid tripping as he walked on
the bottom, making sure that the net was not torn by getting stuck on a rock as
it was pulled to land tied to the side of the boat. Even if he might not be able
to reach bottom, when he jumped into the water, he would be able to reach later
in more shallow water.
Iver Larsen
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list