[B-Greek] Matt 15:27

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Nov 10 23:07:26 EST 2009


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: "Kenneth Litwak" <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 11. november 2009 06:26
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matt 15:27


>ἡ δὲ εἶπεν· ναὶ κύριε, καὶ γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ τῶν ψιχίων τῶν πιπτόντων
>ἀπὸ τῆς τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων αὐτῶν.
>
> You are relying too much on the English. I would suggest that the GAR here
> should be considered ascensive, i.e. it raises the discussion to a new level.
> The problem is that there are two different groups under consideration -- the
> "dogs" meaning the non-Jews and the Jews. While the "dogs" may not eat the
> children's food, they are freely entitled to the crumbs which fall to the
> floor. Since, however, the discussion is not truly regarding dogs and children
> there is a contrast which is expressed by "yet even" [or "for even"] with the
> "even" representing the KAI rather than the GAR.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ________________________________
> From: Kenneth Litwak <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 7:57:46 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Matt 15:27
>
> In Matt 15:27, the words NAI KURIE KAI GAR TA KUNARIA ESQIEI are generally
> rendered along the lines of "Yes Lord, but even the dogs eat." After looking
> through BDAG for the combination KAI GAR and the article3 on GAR in general,
> Wallace's GGBB, and BDF, I have not found a basis for rendering KAI GAR as
> "but even." It seems GAR is translated as an adversative only because that's
> the only option that makes sense, not because GAR normally has an adversative
> sense in its semantic domain. Is there any justification besides the need to
> make the statement make sense for this translation? I don't doubt the
> translation but I dislike attributing to a word a meaning otherwise contrary
> to its usual meaning in order to make a meaningful translation. Thanks.
>
> Ken

The "but" is a matter of English style and context, and it does not necessarily
translate the GAR. As always, GAR is explanatory and supportive, but the
statement it explains and brings support to is implicit, namely "But please help
me anyway", for even the little dogs eat...
The "but" comes from this implicit request.

Iver Larsen




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