[B-Greek] Matt 15:27

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Nov 11 05:39:51 EST 2009


I would agree that the problem lies in the English being used as a basis for understanding the Greek phraseology here.
In my view, it's not a matter of what KAI GAR means as a combination; rather the KAI is adverbial: "even the dogs ... " and the GAR indicates that what the woman is saying is a response to what Jesus has said. I have in the past urged students to try using an "after all" to represent a GAR and see what sense that yields: "Even the dogs, after all, eat the scraps ... "

GAR is a tricky particle, hard to get a handle on, especially as it is used in sequential line-by-line dialogues in Greek drama ("stichomythia") where its idiomatic usage comes most into play. The worst thing one can do is attempt to pin it down to a one-word English equivalent.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)


On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:07 PM, Iver Larsen wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: "Kenneth Litwak" <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 11. november 2009 06:26
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matt 15:27
> 
> 
>> ἡ δὲ εἶπεν· ναὶ κύριε, καὶ γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ τῶν ψιχίων τῶν πιπτόντων
>> ἀπὸ τῆς τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων αὐτῶν.
>> 
>> You are relying too much on the English. I would suggest that the GAR here
>> should be considered ascensive, i.e. it raises the discussion to a new level.
>> The problem is that there are two different groups under consideration -- the
>> "dogs" meaning the non-Jews and the Jews. While the "dogs" may not eat the
>> children's food, they are freely entitled to the crumbs which fall to the
>> floor. Since, however, the discussion is not truly regarding dogs and children
>> there is a contrast which is expressed by "yet even" [or "for even"] with the
>> "even" representing the KAI rather than the GAR.
>> 
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>> ________________________________
>> From: Kenneth Litwak <javajedi2 at yahoo.com>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 7:57:46 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Matt 15:27
>> 
>> In Matt 15:27, the words NAI KURIE KAI GAR TA KUNARIA ESQIEI are generally
>> rendered along the lines of "Yes Lord, but even the dogs eat." After looking
>> through BDAG for the combination KAI GAR and the article3 on GAR in general,
>> Wallace's GGBB, and BDF, I have not found a basis for rendering KAI GAR as
>> "but even." It seems GAR is translated as an adversative only because that's
>> the only option that makes sense, not because GAR normally has an adversative
>> sense in its semantic domain. Is there any justification besides the need to
>> make the statement make sense for this translation? I don't doubt the
>> translation but I dislike attributing to a word a meaning otherwise contrary
>> to its usual meaning in order to make a meaningful translation. Thanks.
>> 
>> Ken
> 
> The "but" is a matter of English style and context, and it does not necessarily
> translate the GAR. As always, GAR is explanatory and supportive, but the
> statement it explains and brings support to is implicit, namely "But please help
> me anyway", for even the little dogs eat...
> The "but" comes from this implicit request.
> 
> Iver Larsen







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