[B-Greek] John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI

Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Fri Feb 19 16:03:21 EST 2010


You are quite right that an awkward and ambiguous translation  
equivalent can in time become institutionalized, and thus become part  
of the living language. Whether that happened in the case of the  
expression under discussion I do not know, but potentially TLG could  
tell. Since it is found in the NT outside of LXX citations, there is  
reason to believe that, at least in some circles, it became viable  
usage. If that is correct, one might then retrospectively look to the  
LXX occurrences for its meaning. Even though it originated as a reflex  
of the Hebrew (and thus as a translation equivalent), its Septuagintal  
contexts presumably gave rise to its sense.
Albert Pietersma
On Feb 19, 2010, at 2:54 PM, Vasile STANCU wrote:

> I wonder what would have been the reflect of those phrases in the  
> minds of the Greek readers of those times. What would be their  
> interpretation? Mark and Luke seem to be using the same construction  
> in NT texts. And I suppose Luke was a native Greek speaker. Could it  
> be that the expresssion under dicussion had already become a kind of  
> a neologism brought into the Greek language? (I suppose that  
> particular construction, being abnormal by Greek standards, is not  
> found in sources older that the Septuagint - in the classical  
> writings, for instance).
>
> Vasile Stancu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Albert Pietersma [mailto:albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: Vasile STANCU
> Cc: Albert Pietersma; gfsomsel at yahoo.com; cwconrad2 at mac.com; iver_larsen at sil.org 
> ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
>
> Beware, since Septuagint translations cannot be relied upon for normal
> Greek usage. In the cases you cite, the construction is an exact
> reflex of the Hebrew.
> Al Pietersma
> On Feb 19, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Vasile STANCU wrote:
>
>> When I tried that possibility, I had in mind other instances where
>> the same construction seems to be used the same way: Judg 11:12;
>> 2Sam 16:10; 19:22; 1Kg 17:18; 2Kg 3:13; 2Cr 35:21; Mk 5:7. Do you
>> know of other instances where the other sense is applicable?
>>
>> Vasile Stancu
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: George F Somsel [mailto:gfsomsel at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 4:45 PM
>> To: Vasile STANCU; cwconrad2 at mac.com; iver_larsen at sil.org
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
>>
>> No, that won't do at all.  I would understand it more to mean "What
>> business of ours is that?"  Note what this responds to
>>
>> 3καὶ ὑστερήσαντος οἴνου λέγει ἡ
>> μήτηρ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν• οἶνον
>> οὐκ ἔχουσιν. 4[καὶ]λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ
>> Ἰησοῦς• τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι; 3 KAI
>> hUSTERHSANTOS OINOU LEGEI hH MHTHR TOU IHSOU PROS AUTON, "OINON OU
>> EXOUSIN."  4 [KAI] LEGEI AUTHi hO IHSOUS, "TI EMOI KAI SOI, GUNAI?"
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Vasile STANCU <stancu at mail.dnttm.ro>
>> To: cwconrad2 at mac.com; iver_larsen at sil.org
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Fri, February 19, 2010 7:34:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
>>
>> Or, to make it a little bit more literal,
>>
>> "What mine is also yours?"
>>
>> (Sorry, English is foreign language to me, but I would like that it
>> allow such phrasing; it would probably help to understand this Greek
>> construction as if it was one of its own).
>>
>> Vasile Stancu
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> ] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 11:52 AM
>> To: Iver Larsen
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI
>>
>>
>> "What business of yours is what I do?"
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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>
>> Albert Pietersma PhD
> 21 Cross Street,
> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
> ---
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—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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