[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI

Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Sat Feb 20 03:17:09 EST 2010


2010/2/20 Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>:
> Yes, Louis, I believe this is moving in the right direction. I am not familiar
> with the American idiom, not being an American nor watching many gangster
> movies.
>
> What is important to realize is that this is an idiom, and you cannot get the
> meaning of an idiom by adding up the meaning of the individual words, nor by
> making a literal translation. In order to get a feel for the meaning of an
> idiom, ideally you ask native speakers to describe it and if possible let them
> describe the situations where the idiom could be used. Louis has done that below
> for the American one. If there are no native speakers available, you can get an
> idea of the meaning by studying and comparing all the contexts where the idiom
> occurs.
>
> The situation Louis describes is a bit different from the Biblical examples. The
> addressee is not normally rash, angry or bold. So "don't mess with me" might not
> apply. Since two pronouns are used in the Biblical idiom, the idiom involves a
> relationship between two parties. That relationship is being questioned by use
> of a rhetorical question. The person speaking wants to break off some aspect of
> the relationship, or he does not want to enter into a relationship in terms of
> the situation being played out.
>
> What does apply are statements like "Leave me alone!", "Don't bother me" and
> usually also "stop what you are doing or intending to do to me".
>
> The literal rendering is a betrayal of the text, but various suggestions based
> on one context alone are risky.
>
<Clipped>
>
> My suggestion: "Leave me alone, mother!" (Jesus needs to free himself from his
> mother's desire to control what he does, because he knows that he has to do what
> his Father tells him to do, not what his mother tells him to do.)
>
> This suggestion (which is not mine alone) is not based on John 2:4, but on all
> instances in the Bible where the idiom occurs. The advantage of this one is that
> the same translation works pretty well in all instances.
>
> Mat 8:29: "Leave us alone, you Son of God!" (Similarly in Mark 1:24, 5:7 and
> Luke 4:34, 8:28)
>
> "You're bringing me your concern, aren't you, my dear?" just won't do.
>
> By the way, the language in Africa that we are doing translation into has a very
> similar idiom: "What do you want with me?" This is how John 2:4 is translated ,
> and it might even work in English, but I am not sure, since English is a foreign
> language to me.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
>

Hold on Iver,

(And my apology to all if I'm gone too far overboard. Also to be
mentioned is that the translation itself is affected by one's
understanding/exegesis. It's unavoidable and there is no way to get
around. On the contrary, the proper understanding/exegesis is actually
a prerequisite.)

You said rightly that

      "The addressee is not normally rash, angry or bold.
      So "don't mess with me" might not apply. "

Then why do you go back on your word by saying

      My suggestion: "Leave me alone, mother!" ?

Mat 8:29: "Leave us alone, you Son of God!" (also Mark 1:24, 5:7 and
Luke 4:34, 8:28)
has nothing to do with our text Jn 2:4. It's in an entirely different context!

Let's read from Jn 2:3

2:3	And as the wine running out,
		Jesus′s mother comes and talks to Him,
	“No more wine they have!”

2:4a
        Jesus says to her,
           “You’re bringing your concern to me,
           aren’t you, my dear ?”
          ......

When someone is approaching with such a request, not by outright
asking to do, but by bringing in a very discreet respectful way the
situation to be known, what are the ways people handle it?

   (1) being irritated, feel interferred, inconvenienced, interrupted, etc.
        and responding reluctantly, reprovingly, even refusing, or
   (2) rejoicing and gladly to respond to give help.

Let me complete the lines with 2:4b
	. . .
	
I put a pause btw 4a and 4b to invite the readers to read from between
the lines (here I have to repeat what I said on my previous posting) –
to feel mutual loving of son and mother and to have a glimpse of a
thought going through Yeshua’s mind.

         “You don’t think my hour is yet to come, do you?"

How does it sound? Anything other than a reassuring answer?  Upon
hearing this, His mother understood exactly that - Her son will do
something to solve her concern. On the part of Jesus,
the time to go public to make His glory known has finally come (v. 11).

v. 5   Turning to those serving the guests,
        His mother then says,
        "Do whatever you're told by my son, will you?"

Here 'do whatever HE tells you' won't cut in the oriental culture. No
one would address their mother as 'he'. On the contrary, by saying 'my
son', I cannot fail to feel how proud the mother was, as they are
always, to have Him as a son and was able to tell people!

At the end, v. 11
       Jesus did this as beginning of the signs
            at Cana in Galilee.
       And thus He makes His glory known,
            and His disciples come to believe in Him.

Which attitude or approach do we suppose Jesus had, (1) as a reluctant
'don't bother me' uncaring son like so often we see in every society
or class, or (2) a gracefully responding Son with care and love for
His mother and with conviction to carry out God's plan?

As far as I can see (though actually it took several years to come
this far), there is no hint of whatsoever rude or reluctant in this
narrative John tells us about the very first sign. And there is
nothing whatsoever unsure about the realization Jesus had about His
come finally had come.

The first sign at Canna. What signs? It's the signs of God's wonderful
self-giving love; G-John is the sum of the seven signs. In all the
pages of the whole Bible, the very divine love itself is  only to be
found right there in Jn 1:1b 'KAI hO LOGOS PROS TON QEON "yes, the
Logos was face to face with Elohim". Easy to miss, but the love at its
source IS in union/fellowship/relationship btw the Father and the Son.

I may add here something about symbolism in this water-turned-to-wine
narrative which I happened to learn less than two weeks age. It's not
that we happen to see this recorded at the beginning of His ministry,
but, John, by faithfully recording, was also subtly telling us that
the work based religion (Judaism requiring purification to keep our
selves clean) has run its course, and now people can get drunk in
joyful setting (like a marriage-feast) with new wine of the spirit,
freely given and coming from above, setting a stage for the gift of
eternal life.

Oun Kwon.



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