[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Feb 20 01:00:20 EST 2010


Yes, Louis, I believe this is moving in the right direction. I am not familiar 
with the American idiom, not being an American nor watching many gangster 
movies.

What is important to realize is that this is an idiom, and you cannot get the 
meaning of an idiom by adding up the meaning of the individual words, nor by 
making a literal translation. In order to get a feel for the meaning of an 
idiom, ideally you ask native speakers to describe it and if possible let them 
describe the situations where the idiom could be used. Louis has done that below 
for the American one. If there are no native speakers available, you can get an 
idea of the meaning by studying and comparing all the contexts where the idiom 
occurs.

The situation Louis describes is a bit different from the Biblical examples. The 
addressee is not normally rash, angry or bold. So "don't mess with me" might not 
apply. Since two pronouns are used in the Biblical idiom, the idiom involves a 
relationship between two parties. That relationship is being questioned by use 
of a rhetorical question. The person speaking wants to break off some aspect of 
the relationship, or he does not want to enter into a relationship in terms of 
the situation being played out.

What does apply are statements like "Leave me alone!", "Don't bother me" and 
usually also "stop what you are doing or intending to do to me".

The literal rendering is a betrayal of the text, but various suggestions based 
on one context alone are risky.

RSV: "What have you to do with me?" is not English. If I as a Bible translation 
consultant am presented with such translations, I tell the translators: Go back 
and do proper research and then redo the translation.

ESV: "What does this have to do with me? misses the "you" part and adds a "this" 
which is unnecessary.
REB: "That is no concern of mine." Again misses the "you" part and adds a 
"that".
NIV: "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" is better, but still not quite right.
NLT96: "How does that concern you and me?" is mistaken.
(NLT96 correctly translated it "Why are you bothering me?" in the other 5 places 
in the NT. Why they didn't do the same in John 2:4 I don't know.)
NLT04: "Dear woman, that's not our problem" gives the wrong meaning.
NET: "Why are you saying this to me?" Is not correct either, and the NET note on 
this is rather misleading.
GNB: "You must not tell me what to do" is the best I have found in English 
versions for John 2:4.

My suggestion: "Leave me alone, mother!" (Jesus needs to free himself from his 
mother's desire to control what he does, because he knows that he has to do what 
his Father tells him to do, not what his mother tells him to do.)

This suggestion (which is not mine alone) is not based on John 2:4, but on all 
instances in the Bible where the idiom occurs. The advantage of this one is that 
the same translation works pretty well in all instances.

Mat 8:29: "Leave us alone, you Son of God!" (Similarly in Mark 1:24, 5:7 and 
Luke 4:34, 8:28)

"You're bringing me your concern, aren't you, my dear?" just won't do.

By the way, the language in Africa that we are doing translation into has a very 
similar idiom: "What do you want with me?" This is how John 2:4 is translated , 
and it might even work in English, but I am not sure, since English is a foreign 
language to me.

Iver Larsen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Louis Sorenson" <llsorenson at hotmail.com>
To: "B-Greek List mail to all" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 20. februar 2010 06:20
Subject: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI


>
> I think in English (American) we have a similar phrase which one hears in 
> gangster movies
>
> What's it to you!
>
> Usually, it is person with a crass Bostonian accent speaking
> (or a New York Italian mobster).
>
> This phrase is spoken when someone intrudes on a rash, angry
> and bold person's world.  Often expletives (curse words) will accompany
> "What's it to you!" in English.  The intent of the statement in
> English, is, "Leave me alone!" "Don't Mess with me!" or even
> "I'm warning you (if you don't stop harassing me, there is going
> to be trouble!" The English phrase is loaded with emotional content.
> It is spoken in confrontational situations.
>
> I don't think the Greek
>
> ΤΙ ΕΜΟΙ ΚΑΙ ΣΟΙ
>
> is much different than the English (truncated as TI KAI SOI) statement.
>
> Louis Sorenson




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