[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI (rev)
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Feb 23 23:56:36 EST 2010
Thanks, Al,
These citations support what we can deduce from the usage of the idiom in the OT
and the NT, namely that it means "Don't bother me!" or "Leave me alone!" This
meaning fits each and every instance, so it is precarious to suggest that John
2:4 should be different from all other instances.
Whether GUNAI is rude or not should again be established by its usage. This
vocative is found in:
Matthew 15:28; Luke 13:12; 22:57; John 2:4; 4:21; 8:10; 19:26; 20:13,15; 1
Corinthians 7:16
None of these contexts indicate any rudeness, and John uses it more than others.
The vocative MHTER is not found in the NT and is very rare in the OT (1Ki 2:20,
Jer 15:10, translating 'immi - my mother) - as is the vocative GUNAI. How common
is the vocative MHTER is secular Greek?
The perceived rudeness is a result of English translations which use the word
"woman".
The NET still uses "woman" because it is essentially a literal version, but then
they explain in their notes why this is a misleading translation. For instance,
for Mat 15:28 their note says: "Woman was a polite form of address (see BDAG
208-9 s.v. γυνή 1), similar to “Madam” or “Ma’am” used in English in different
regions." I would have no qualms about translating it as "mother".
Iver Larsen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Albert Pietersma" <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at comcast.net>
Cc: "Biblical Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 24. februar 2010 05:55
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI (rev)
> Sorry, I forgot to include an important Greek word.
> Al
>
> Joh 2.4 has relatively little context, as a result of which it is
> difficult to determine the force of TI EMOI KAI EMOI, GUNAI. The
> Epictetus instances of the same expression gives more context. Here is
> the Epictetus passage, with considerable context.
> Epictetus: Discourses, BOOK II. XIX. 14‑!9
>
> Show me how you are in the habit of conducting yourself in a storm on
> board ship. Do you bear in mind this logical distinction between good
> and evil when the sail crackles, and you have screamed and some
> fellow‑passenger, untimely humorous, comes up and says, "Tell me, I
> beseech you by the gods, just what you were saying a little while ago.
> Is it a vice to suffer shipwreck? Is there any vice in that ? Will you
> not pick up a piece of wood and cudgel him ? "What have we to do with
> you, fellow? (TI hHMIN KAI SOI, ANQRWPE) We are perishing and you come
> and crack jokes!" And if Caesar sends for you to answer an accusation,
> do you bear in mind this distinction? Suppose someone approaches you
> when you are going in pale and trembling, and says, "Why are you
> trembling, fellow? What is the affair that concerns you? Does Caesar
> inside the palace bestow virtue and vice upon those who appear before
> him?" " Why do you also make mock of me and add to my other ills?'' "
> But yet, philosopher, tell me, why are you trembling? Is not the
> danger death, or prison, or bodily pain, or exile, or disrepute ? Why'
> what else can it be? Is it a vice at all, or anything that shares in
> vice? What was it, then, that you used to call these things?" "What
> have I to do with you, fellow? (TI EMOI KAI SOI, ANQRWPE) My own evils
> are enough for me." And in that you are right. For your own evils are
> enough for you‑‑your baseness, your cowardice, the bragging that
> you indulged in when you were sitting in the lecture room. Why did you
> pride yourself upon things that were not your own? Why did you call
> yourself a Stoic?
> Al
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