[B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI (rev)

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Feb 24 11:41:50 EST 2010


Hi, Al,

Yes, I am not saying that a vocative in and of itself determines whether a word 
is considered rude or not. However, I do not agree that a single word cannot be 
rude, whether used as a vocative or not.

A study of the vocative GUNAI in all its NT contexts indicates that it is not 
rude, unlike the English "Woman" used as vocative.
Whether our idiom TI EMOI KAI SOI is considered rude depends, I think, on the 
context. It creates a distance between the speaker and the addressee. Is "Leave 
me alone" rude or not? It may depend on intonation, facial expression and the 
kind of relationship already existing between the people. Rudeness is also a 
very cultural concept.
Is Jesus not very rude against the Pharisees? And what about John the Baptist? 
The tolerance for and perception of rudeness varies with culture.

Iver

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert Pietersma" <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Cc: "Albert Pietersma" <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>; "Biblical Greek" 
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 24. februar 2010 19:01
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI (rev)


Iver,
I have some difficulty with your argumentation. It seems patently
obvious that vocatives in and of themselves are not rude forms of
address, in Greek or in English. But how does it follow that the
vocatives GUNAI or ANQRWPE with the phrase TI EMOI KAI SOI are not
rude? The rudeness, if present, surely comes from the expression as a
whole in a given context, not from its component parts individually.
Thus, even if it be granted that, in English, "woman" as a form of
address is rude, that scarcely means that, ipso facto, it should not
be used in the expression at issue. It all hinges on whether TI EMOI
KAI SOI, GUNAI/ANQRWPE is judged to be rude in Greek. Judging from
Epictetus, it does seem to be caustic. Is that the same as rude?
Al
On Feb 23, 2010, at 11:56 PM, Iver Larsen wrote:

> Thanks, Al,
>
> These citations support what we can deduce from the usage of the  idiom in the 
> OT and the NT, namely that it means "Don't bother me!"  or "Leave me alone!" 
> This meaning fits each and every instance, so  it is precarious to suggest 
> that John 2:4 should be different from  all other instances.
>
> Whether GUNAI is rude or not should again be established by its  usage. This 
> vocative is found in:
> Matthew 15:28; Luke 13:12; 22:57; John 2:4; 4:21; 8:10; 19:26;  20:13,15; 1 
> Corinthians 7:16
>
> None of these contexts indicate any rudeness, and John uses it more  than 
> others. The vocative MHTER is not found in the NT and is very  rare in the OT 
> (1Ki 2:20, Jer 15:10, translating 'immi - my mother)  - as is the vocative 
> GUNAI. How common is the vocative MHTER is  secular Greek?
>
> The perceived rudeness is a result of English translations which use  the word 
> "woman".
>
> The NET still uses "woman" because it is essentially a literal  version, but 
> then they explain in their notes why this is a  misleading translation. For 
> instance, for Mat 15:28 their note says:  "Woman was a polite form of address 
> (see BDAG 208-9 s.v. γυνή 1),  similar to “Madam” or “Ma’am” used in English 
> in different  regions." I would have no qualms about translating it as 
> "mother".
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert Pietersma" 
> <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
> >
> To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at comcast.net>
> Cc: "Biblical Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 24. februar 2010 05:55
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] RE; John 2:4 TI EMOI KAI SOI (rev)
>
>
>> Sorry, I forgot to include an important Greek word.
>> Al
>>
>> Joh 2.4 has relatively little context, as a result of which it is
>> difficult to determine the force of TI EMOI KAI EMOI, GUNAI. The
>> Epictetus instances of the same expression gives more context. Here  is
>> the Epictetus passage, with considerable context.
>> Epictetus: Discourses, BOOK II. XIX. 14‑!9
>>
>> Show me how you are in the habit of conducting yourself in a storm on
>> board ship. Do you bear in mind this logical distinction between good
>> and evil when the sail crackles, and you have screamed and some
>> fellow‑passenger, untimely humorous, comes up and says, "Tell me, I
>> beseech you by the gods, just what you were saying a little while  ago.
>> Is it a vice to suffer shipwreck? Is there any vice in that ? Will  you
>> not pick up a piece of wood and cudgel him ? "What have we to do with
>> you, fellow? (TI hHMIN KAI SOI, ANQRWPE) We are perishing and you  come
>> and crack jokes!" And if Caesar sends for you to answer an  accusation,
>> do you bear in mind this distinction? Suppose someone approaches you
>> when you are going in pale and trembling, and says, "Why are you
>> trembling, fellow? What is the affair that concerns you? Does Caesar
>> inside the palace bestow virtue and vice upon those who appear before
>> him?" " Why do you also make mock of me and add to my other ills?'' "
>> But yet, philosopher, tell me, why are you trembling? Is not the
>> danger death, or prison, or bodily pain, or exile, or disrepute ?  Why'
>> what else can it be? Is it a vice at all, or anything that shares in
>> vice? What was it, then, that you used to call these things?" "What
>> have I to do with you, fellow? (TI EMOI KAI SOI, ANQRWPE) My own  evils
>> are enough for me." And in that you are right. For your own evils are
>> enough for you‑‑your baseness, your cowardice, the bragging that
>> you indulged in when you were sitting in the lecture room. Why did  you
>> pride yourself upon things that were not your own? Why did you call
>> yourself a Stoic?
>> Al
>
>

—
Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm




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