[B-Greek] 2COR. 11:1 MOU & AFROSUNHS
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Jan 6 00:25:40 EST 2010
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
To: "Nikolaos Adamou" <nikolaos.adamou at hotmail.com>
Cc: "b-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 6. januar 2010 02:50
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2COR. 11:1 MOU & AFROSUNHS
> There's clearly a difference of opinion hee about what "makes sense." I would
> not
> expect there's going to be any serious shifting of ground on the questions
> here.
>
> On Jan 5, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Nikolaos Adamou wrote:
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Nikolaos Adamou wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry the previous message had a lot of non sense formating that I do not
>>> know how they got into it,
>>>
>>> 2COR. 11:1 Ὄφελον ἀνείχεσθέ μου μικρὸν τῇ ἀφροσύνῃ•
>>> ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀνέχεσθέ μου•.
>>> 2COR. 11:1 OFELON ANEICESQE MOU MIKRON TH AFROSUNH•
>>> ALLA KAI ANECESQE MOU.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>> On your first question
>>> about the syntax:
>>> if you take the alternative Byzantine text
>>> makes it clear that MOY is related to the verb
>>> since there is no MIKRON TI, but
>>> MIKRON TH AFROSYNH (in dative and not in genitive).
>>> MIKRON TI is meaningless
>>
>> Carl’s comment
>> Why is it meaningless? It's a very common sort of expression; cf. BDAG
>> s.v. TIS indef.:
>> b. adj.
>> β. serving to moderate or heighten
>> א. to moderate an expr. that is too definite 42; Mlt-Turner 195).
>> ב. w. adjectives of quality and quantity to heighten the
>> rhetorical emphasis φοβερά τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως Hb 10:27. βραχύ τι
>> (only) a little 2:7, 9 (Ps 8:6).
>>
>> Adamou’s response
>> I did not say that is meaningless in general,
>> BUT in this particular instance.
>> MIKRON TI means "something small" or "little bit".
>> And just TI (5100) has 444 occurrences in NT.
>
> Not "something small" but "a little bit" -- or "just a little." That's exactly
> what BDAG in the last line of the cited entry is getting at.
>
>> In verse 16 we have TI again as well as TIS.
>> Πάλιν λέγω, μή τίς με δόξῃ ἄφρονα εἶναι•
>> εἰ δὲ μή γε, κἂν ὡς ἄφρονα δέξασθε με,
>> ἵνα κἀγὼ μικρόν τι καυχήσωμαι.
>> PALIN LEGW, MH TIS ME DOCHi AFRONA EINAI•
>> EI DE MH GE, KAN hWS AFRONA DECASQE ME,
>> hINA KAGW MIKRON TI KAUCHSWMAI.
>>
>> But in 16 hINA KAGW MIKRON TI KAUCHSWMAI means that
>> that I may boast myself a little BIT.
>>
>> And it is specific, LITTLE BIT, and not general ANY LITTLE.
>
> I agree: it's "little bit" or "just a little" It is, as BDAG puts it,
> "w. adjectives of quality and quantity to heighten the rhetorical
> emphasis"
Well, I seem to disagree with BDAG again. Quite often the neuter MIKRON is used
as an adverb meaning for a little while. That seems to fit both verses 1 and 16.
So, I suggest something like: I would like you to indulge me briefly in a matter
of foolishness.
>
>> The following English translations translate only MIKRON omitting TI
>> both in 11:1 and 11:16
>>
>> New International Version
>> New Living Translation
>> New American Standard Bible
>> GOD'S WORD ® Translation
>> King James Bible
>> American Standard Version
>> Douay-Rheims Bible
>> English Revised Version
>>
>> ONLY the Interlinear Bible gives for TI - any
>>
>> In 11:1
>> bear with me in a little foolishness; (without TI)
>> bear with me in (any) little foolishness; - I think it is meaningless
>> or
>> bear with me in little (bit) foolishness; - I think it is meaningless
>>
>> While in 11:16
>> ἵνα κἀγὼ μικρόν τι καυχήσωμαι.
>> hINA KAGW MIKRON TI KAUCHSWMAI
>> the interlinear gives for TI one – that I still think it is
>> meaningless
>> that I may boast myself a little bit – that no one has it, and I think
>> that
>> not only makes sense, but
>> reflects
>> the text appropriately.
>>
>>
>>> MIKRON TH AFROSYNH makes syntactical sense.
>>
>>
>> Carl’s comment
>> On the other hand, the verb ANECOMAI in antiquity seems regularly
>> construed with the genitive, not with a dative.
>>
>> Adamou’s response
>> ἀνεχομαί τινα (ANECOMAI TINA) = ὑπομένω (hYPOMENW) = endure
>>
>> LEXIKON ANWMALWN RHMATWN THS ARXAIAS ELLHNIKHS – A. Georgopapadakou,
>> 21rst ed. Thessaloniki Greece, page 87
>>
>> ὰνέχομαί τινος (ANECOMAI TINOS) = ἐπιτρέπω (EPITREPW) = allow
>
>
> That seems to me a very questionable equation. Yes, EPITREPW involves
> permission,
> but I think that ANECOMAI involves rather patience with someone acting in a
> contrary fashion.
>
>> LEXIKON ANWMALWN RHMATWN THS ARXAIAS ELLHNIKHS – A. Georgopapadakou,
>> 21rst ed. Thessaloniki Greece, page 28
>>
>> Carl’s comment
>> And why the article with AFROSUNHi?
>>
>> Adamou’s response
>> Because AFROSUNHi is noun,
>> and nouns in Greek are together with their corresponding articles.
>
> I wouldn't expect an article construed with a verb. I was asking
> rather why the article was needed. Clearly TH and TI were
> pronounced the same way. A copyist hearing MIKRON TI could have
> written MIKRON TH and then made AFROSUNH a dative form.
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