[B-Greek] 2COR. 11:1 MOU & AFROSUNHS

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Jan 5 18:50:43 EST 2010


There's clearly a difference of opinion hee about what "makes sense." I would not
expect there's going to be any serious shifting of ground on the questions here.

On Jan 5, 2010, at 5:57 PM, Nikolaos Adamou wrote:
> 
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 11:32 PM, Nikolaos Adamou wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Sorry the previous message had a lot of non sense formating that I do not know how they got into it,
>> 
>> 2COR. 11:1 Ὄφελον ἀνείχεσθέ μου μικρὸν τῇ ἀφροσύνῃ•
>>           ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀνέχεσθέ μου•.
>> 2COR. 11:1 OFELON ANEICESQE MOU MIKRON TH AFROSUNH•
>>           ALLA KAI ANECESQE MOU.
>> 
>> Elizabeth
>> 
>> On your first question
>> about the syntax:
>> if you take the alternative Byzantine text
>> makes it clear that MOY is related to the verb
>> since there is no MIKRON TI, but
>> MIKRON TH AFROSYNH (in dative and not in genitive).
>> MIKRON TI is meaningless
> 
> Carl’s comment
> Why is it meaningless? It's a very common sort of expression; cf. BDAG
> s.v. TIS indef.:
> 	b. adj.
> 	β. serving to moderate or heighten
> 	‏א‎.  to moderate an expr. that is too definite 42; Mlt-Turner 195).
> 	‏ב‎.  w. adjectives of quality and quantity to heighten the
> rhetorical emphasis φοβερά τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως Hb 10:27. βραχύ τι
> (only) a little 2:7, 9 (Ps 8:6).
> 
> Adamou’s response
> I did not say that is meaningless in general,
> BUT in this particular instance.
> MIKRON TI means "something small" or "little bit".
> And just TI (5100) has 444 occurrences in NT.

Not "something small" but "a little bit" -- or "just a little." That's exactly 
what BDAG in the last line of the cited entry is getting at.

> In verse 16 we have TI again as well as TIS.
> Πάλιν λέγω, μή τίς με δόξῃ ἄφρονα εἶναι•
> εἰ δὲ μή γε, κἂν ὡς ἄφρονα δέξασθε με,
> ἵνα κἀγὼ μικρόν τι καυχήσωμαι.
> PALIN LEGW, MH TIS ME DOCHi AFRONA EINAI•
> EI DE MH GE, KAN hWS AFRONA DECASQE ME,
> hINA KAGW MIKRON TI KAUCHSWMAI.
> 
> But in 16 hINA KAGW MIKRON TI KAUCHSWMAI means that
> that I may boast myself a little BIT.
> 
> And it is specific, LITTLE BIT, and not general ANY LITTLE.

I agree: it's "little bit" or "just a little" It is, as BDAG puts it, 
"w. adjectives of quality and quantity to heighten the rhetorical
emphasis"

> The following English translations translate only MIKRON omitting TI
> both in 11:1 and 11:16
> 
> New International Version
> New Living Translation
> New American Standard Bible
> GOD'S WORD ® Translation
> King James Bible
> American Standard Version
> Douay-Rheims Bible
> English Revised Version
> 
> ONLY the Interlinear Bible gives for TI - any
> 
> In 11:1
> bear with me in a little foolishness;         (without TI)
> bear with me in (any) little foolishness;   - I think it is meaningless
> or
> bear with me in little (bit) foolishness;   - I think it is meaningless
> 
> While in 11:16
> ἵνα  κἀγὼ  μικρόν  τι  καυχήσωμαι.
> hINA KAGW MIKRON  TI  KAUCHSWMAI
> the interlinear gives for TI one            – that I still think it is meaningless
> that I may boast myself a little bit        – that no one has it, and I think that
>                                              not only makes sense, but reflects
>                         		      the text appropriately.
> 
> 
>> MIKRON TH AFROSYNH makes syntactical sense.
> 
> 
> Carl’s comment
> On the other hand, the verb ANECOMAI in antiquity seems regularly
> construed with the genitive, not with a dative.
> 
> Adamou’s response
> ἀνεχομαί τινα (ANECOMAI TINA) = ὑπομένω (hYPOMENW) = endure
> 
> LEXIKON ANWMALWN RHMATWN THS ARXAIAS ELLHNIKHS – A. Georgopapadakou,
> 21rst ed. Thessaloniki Greece, page 87
> 
> ὰνέχομαί τινος (ANECOMAI TINOS) = ἐπιτρέπω (EPITREPW) = allow


That seems to me a very questionable equation. Yes, EPITREPW involves permission,
but I think that ANECOMAI  involves rather patience with someone acting in a
contrary fashion.

> LEXIKON ANWMALWN RHMATWN THS ARXAIAS ELLHNIKHS – A. Georgopapadakou,
> 21rst ed. Thessaloniki Greece, page 28
> 
> Carl’s comment
> And why the article with AFROSUNHi?
> 
> Adamou’s response
> Because AFROSUNHi is noun,
> and nouns in Greek are together with their corresponding articles.

I wouldn't expect an article construed with a verb. I was asking
rather why the article was needed. Clearly TH and TI were 
pronounced the same way. A copyist hearing MIKRON TI could have
written MIKRON TH and then made AFROSUNH a dative form.





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