[B-Greek] You Are Smarter Than a Lexicon (?) The beat goes on ...

Fortigurn dixit-dominus at thechristadelphians.org
Fri Jun 4 14:22:56 EDT 2010



Carl,

 >
Sure, but the blog-entry to which I called attention disparages that 
old-fashioned learning method -- rightly so, in my opinion. But what it 
offers in its place is a system whereby it isn't necessary at all to 
learn Greek; you learn how to access what other scholars have 
predigested and spewed out for you as the meaning of the Greek text.
 >

For some, that will be sufficient for their needs. I don't think Logos 
is suggesting that this is the best method for everyone. The fact is 
that not everyone needs to learn Greek, just like not everyone needs to 
learn how translate the Bible for themselves. It's certainly more 
efficient for people to rely on a pool of knowledge experts. However, I 
do share your concern that people may be misled by thinking they know 
more than they really do, or that they're being provided with tools 
which discourage them incidentally from using better tools or methods.

 >
I don't happen to think English has a very effiicent orthography or 
phonetics. Italian and German are more the preferred model of that for me.
 >

Italian and German have the same alphabet as English, and German adds 
some unnecessary diacritics. I agree that English is less phonetic in 
its orthography than it could be, but the North Americans are doing 
their best to correct this.

 >
But English-speakers have acquired the ability to speak and read English 
without expending superhuman effort, regardless of its structures, 
however absurd they may be, and a great literature has been composed in 
it. The same is true of ancient Greek: a great literature is there and 
the language can be learned -- it really CAN.
 >

Well yes it can. And you can fill a well with a bucket with a hole in it 
if you expend sufficient effort. Of course it's more efficient to get a 
better bucket. Great literature has been written in Chinese, as also in 
Sumerian, and the languages can be learned, they really can. But who in 
their right mind would suggest going back to Sumerian logographs, clay 
tablets, and pointy sticks? Similarly, I  don't know of anyone who would 
suggest that we ditch the English alphabet in favour of a set of 50,000 
characters including over 5,000 homophones. It's just ludicrously 
inefficient. We might as well send smoke signals.

Jonathan Burke.
> On Jun 4, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Fortigurn wrote:
>   
>> Carl,
>>
>> It's worth pointing out that Logos do offer more traditional methods of 
>> learning Greek. They offer electronic editions of standard Greek 
>> textbooks and courses:
>>
>> * Introduction to Biblical Greek Collection (3 Vols.) 
>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/2803>
>> * Advanced Greek Supplement (6 Vols.) 
>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/4650>
>> * Introduction to NT Greek (CDROM) 
>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/1065>
>> * Hellenika: A Beginning Greek Textbook 
>> <http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/HELLENIKA>
>>
>> They have also co-sponsored the three day intensive Greek learning camps 
>> <http://biblicalgreek.org/classes/giaw/> of another company. They even 
>> sell Hebrew and Greek paradigm sheets 
>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/6338>, for those who still love 
>> the good old fashioned 'stare-and-chant-for-hours-until-magic-happens' 
>> method of learning which I had to sit through for two years while 
>> supposedly learning Greek in university. To be fair, my professor was a 
>> wonderful guy and did his utmost to help us, but also said bluntly that 
>> the only real way to pick up the language was hours and hours of 
>> grinding away at rote learning.
>>     
>
> Sure, but the blog-entry to which I called attention disparages that old-fashioned learning method -- rightly so, in my opinion. But what it offers in its place is a system whereby it isn't necessary at all to learn Greek; you learn how to access what other scholars have predigested and spewed out for you as the meaning of the Greek text.
>
>   
>> Personally, learning Greek through the paradigms was an experience which 
>> reinforced to me beyond doubt just what an idiotically constructed 
>> language Greek was, and how much useless grammatical junk it carried. 
>> This helped me understand why English is such a ridiculous mess.Teaching 
>> English to non-English speakers for 6 years while learning Chinese, has 
>> helped me understand what languages should look like. Chinese has highly 
>> intelligent grammar, but utterly stupid orthography and unnecessarily 
>> difficult phonetics. English has nonsensical and clumsy grammar, but 
>> extremely efficient orthography and phonetics. I would love to see an 
>> amalgamation of the best features of these languages. English could be 
>> improved significantly by throwing out all the useless declensions and 
>> conjugations, and by quartering the number of prepositions and conjunctions.
>>     
>
> I don't happen to think English has a very effiicent orthography or phonetics. Italian and German are more the preferred model of that for me. But English-speakers have acquired the ability to speak and read English without expending superhuman effort, regardless of its structures, however absurd they may be, and a great literature has been composed in it. The same is true of ancient Greek: a great literature is there and the language can be learned -- it really CAN.
>
>   
>> Carl Conrad wrote:
>>     
>>> This morning's followup on yesterday's blog entry at the site in 
>>> question is:
>>> http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/06/learn_to_use_biblical_greek_and_hebrew_with_logos.html
>>>
>>> Yes, that's "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos." From my
>>> own perspective, I think I'd rename it, "Learn to USE Biblical Greek and 
>>> Hebrew without really knowing either language." I don't mean to be unfair
>>> to the software company (I am using the Mac version of some of its items
>>> although my primary Biblical software is Accordance -- which by its nature
>>> is engaged in some of the same (to me) questionable didactic ventures).
>>> In fact, I find that the argument against traditional classroom methodology
>>> -- teaching Greek through memorization of paradigms and grammatical rules
>>> and demonstrating what's been learned by production of wooden literal 
>>> translations -- quite compelling and not far removed from the argument that
>>> I and some others have made against traditional Biblical Greek pedagogy.
>>>
>>> My concern is rather that this pedagogy being peddled in the above-referenced 
>>> video effectively makes its user dependent upon predigested interpretation of
>>> the original-language texts. One learns not the languages, but the use of the
>>> software, and the software functions in su;ch as way as to begin and end with
>>> English language versions of the Biblical text and English-language explanations
>>> of how and why the English-language version means what the original-language
>>> text says.
>>>
>>> I'm not happy about this, but I do think it is the wave of the future in the
>>> pedagogy of Biblical languages; in its own way, it's like the plume of slick
>>> oil spreading across the Gulf, but I think there's a better prospect of the oil
>>> slick being eventually checked. The trend was already there before computer
>>> technology accelerated it: colleges and seminaries can't expend the effort on
>>> bringing students to real competence in the Biblical languages and students
>>> have other things that they need to learn more urgently. Commentaries on
>>> the Biblical text have for some time now included translations of the 
>>> Biblical Greek or Hebrew original text because it cannot be assumed that
>>> users of the commentaries will be able to understand the original-language
>>> text unassisted. The upshot is that competence in Greek and Hebrew is
>>> becoming restricted to an increasingly small number of scholars whose
>>> task is to filter the original-language texts through the software to the
>>> end-user reader/student endeavoring to understand the Biblical text. What
>>> concerns me is the accelerating diminution of those who are sufficiently
>>> competent in Biblical Greek or Hebrew to challenge the validity of what
>>> the predigested scholarship provides the end-user. My question is a
>>> version of Juvenal's "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who will take
>>> care of the caretakers?) -- It seems to me that the opening up of the
>>> Biblical text to the educated laity in the Renaissance and Reformation
>>> is, in a sense, being reversed. The custody of the text of scripture is
>>> being entrusted to a new kind of technological clerical hierarchy.
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>       
>
>
>   




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