[B-Greek] You Are Smarter Than a Lexicon (?) The beat goes on ...
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jun 4 14:43:09 EDT 2010
On Jun 4, 2010, at 2:22 PM, Fortigurn wrote:
>
>
> Carl,
>
>>
> Sure, but the blog-entry to which I called attention disparages that
> old-fashioned learning method -- rightly so, in my opinion. But what it
> offers in its place is a system whereby it isn't necessary at all to
> learn Greek; you learn how to access what other scholars have
> predigested and spewed out for you as the meaning of the Greek text.
>>
>
> For some, that will be sufficient for their needs. I don't think Logos
> is suggesting that this is the best method for everyone. The fact is
> that not everyone needs to learn Greek, just like not everyone needs to
> learn how translate the Bible for themselves. It's certainly more
> efficient for people to rely on a pool of knowledge experts. However, I
> do share your concern that people may be misled by thinking they know
> more than they really do, or that they're being provided with tools
> which discourage them incidentally from using better tools or methods.
The comments on that blog-entry that I've read suggest that the program is a sort of philosopher's stone that will turn lead, i.e. a desire to know what the Hebrew and Greek text of the Bible can tell us that English translations cannot, into gold, i.e. authoritative knowledge of what the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible mean.
My advice to those who do not wish to take the steps required to attain competence in Hebrew and/or Greek are to consult several translations rather than one and several commentaries rather than any one. I still do not believe that one can learn to USE Greek or Hebrew without learning them.
>
>>
> I don't happen to think English has a very effiicent orthography or
> phonetics. Italian and German are more the preferred model of that for me.
>>
>
> Italian and German have the same alphabet as English, and German adds
> some unnecessary diacritics. I agree that English is less phonetic in
> its orthography than it could be, but the North Americans are doing
> their best to correct this.
>
>>
> But English-speakers have acquired the ability to speak and read English
> without expending superhuman effort, regardless of its structures,
> however absurd they may be, and a great literature has been composed in
> it. The same is true of ancient Greek: a great literature is there and
> the language can be learned -- it really CAN.
>>
>
> Well yes it can. And you can fill a well with a bucket with a hole in it
> if you expend sufficient effort. Of course it's more efficient to get a
> better bucket. Great literature has been written in Chinese, as also in
> Sumerian, and the languages can be learned, they really can. But who in
> their right mind would suggest going back to Sumerian logographs, clay
> tablets, and pointy sticks? Similarly, I don't know of anyone who would
> suggest that we ditch the English alphabet in favour of a set of 50,000
> characters including over 5,000 homophones. It's just ludicrously
> inefficient. We might as well send smoke signals.
The Chinese are not teaching Chinese using the old logographs any more. What's ludicrous is the comparison of learning Greek to filling a well with a bucket with a hole in it. But those who feel that they're beating their heads against the wall trying to learn Greek would be better to rely on translations and commentaries than to rely upon a predigested interpretation of what the Greek and Hebrew texts mean.
CWC
>
> Jonathan Burke.
>> On Jun 4, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Fortigurn wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> It's worth pointing out that Logos do offer more traditional methods of
>>> learning Greek. They offer electronic editions of standard Greek
>>> textbooks and courses:
>>>
>>> * Introduction to Biblical Greek Collection (3 Vols.)
>>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/2803>
>>> * Advanced Greek Supplement (6 Vols.)
>>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/4650>
>>> * Introduction to NT Greek (CDROM)
>>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/1065>
>>> * Hellenika: A Beginning Greek Textbook
>>> <http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/HELLENIKA>
>>>
>>> They have also co-sponsored the three day intensive Greek learning camps
>>> <http://biblicalgreek.org/classes/giaw/> of another company. They even
>>> sell Hebrew and Greek paradigm sheets
>>> <http://www.logos.com/products/details/6338>, for those who still love
>>> the good old fashioned 'stare-and-chant-for-hours-until-magic-happens'
>>> method of learning which I had to sit through for two years while
>>> supposedly learning Greek in university. To be fair, my professor was a
>>> wonderful guy and did his utmost to help us, but also said bluntly that
>>> the only real way to pick up the language was hours and hours of
>>> grinding away at rote learning.
>>>
>>
>> Sure, but the blog-entry to which I called attention disparages that old-fashioned learning method -- rightly so, in my opinion. But what it offers in its place is a system whereby it isn't necessary at all to learn Greek; you learn how to access what other scholars have predigested and spewed out for you as the meaning of the Greek text.
>>
>>
>>> Personally, learning Greek through the paradigms was an experience which
>>> reinforced to me beyond doubt just what an idiotically constructed
>>> language Greek was, and how much useless grammatical junk it carried.
>>> This helped me understand why English is such a ridiculous mess.Teaching
>>> English to non-English speakers for 6 years while learning Chinese, has
>>> helped me understand what languages should look like. Chinese has highly
>>> intelligent grammar, but utterly stupid orthography and unnecessarily
>>> difficult phonetics. English has nonsensical and clumsy grammar, but
>>> extremely efficient orthography and phonetics. I would love to see an
>>> amalgamation of the best features of these languages. English could be
>>> improved significantly by throwing out all the useless declensions and
>>> conjugations, and by quartering the number of prepositions and conjunctions.
>>>
>>
>> I don't happen to think English has a very effiicent orthography or phonetics. Italian and German are more the preferred model of that for me. But English-speakers have acquired the ability to speak and read English without expending superhuman effort, regardless of its structures, however absurd they may be, and a great literature has been composed in it. The same is true of ancient Greek: a great literature is there and the language can be learned -- it really CAN.
>>
>>
>>> Carl Conrad wrote:
>>>
>>>> This morning's followup on yesterday's blog entry at the site in
>>>> question is:
>>>> http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/06/learn_to_use_biblical_greek_and_hebrew_with_logos.html
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos." From my
>>>> own perspective, I think I'd rename it, "Learn to USE Biblical Greek and
>>>> Hebrew without really knowing either language." I don't mean to be unfair
>>>> to the software company (I am using the Mac version of some of its items
>>>> although my primary Biblical software is Accordance -- which by its nature
>>>> is engaged in some of the same (to me) questionable didactic ventures).
>>>> In fact, I find that the argument against traditional classroom methodology
>>>> -- teaching Greek through memorization of paradigms and grammatical rules
>>>> and demonstrating what's been learned by production of wooden literal
>>>> translations -- quite compelling and not far removed from the argument that
>>>> I and some others have made against traditional Biblical Greek pedagogy.
>>>>
>>>> My concern is rather that this pedagogy being peddled in the above-referenced
>>>> video effectively makes its user dependent upon predigested interpretation of
>>>> the original-language texts. One learns not the languages, but the use of the
>>>> software, and the software functions in su;ch as way as to begin and end with
>>>> English language versions of the Biblical text and English-language explanations
>>>> of how and why the English-language version means what the original-language
>>>> text says.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not happy about this, but I do think it is the wave of the future in the
>>>> pedagogy of Biblical languages; in its own way, it's like the plume of slick
>>>> oil spreading across the Gulf, but I think there's a better prospect of the oil
>>>> slick being eventually checked. The trend was already there before computer
>>>> technology accelerated it: colleges and seminaries can't expend the effort on
>>>> bringing students to real competence in the Biblical languages and students
>>>> have other things that they need to learn more urgently. Commentaries on
>>>> the Biblical text have for some time now included translations of the
>>>> Biblical Greek or Hebrew original text because it cannot be assumed that
>>>> users of the commentaries will be able to understand the original-language
>>>> text unassisted. The upshot is that competence in Greek and Hebrew is
>>>> becoming restricted to an increasingly small number of scholars whose
>>>> task is to filter the original-language texts through the software to the
>>>> end-user reader/student endeavoring to understand the Biblical text. What
>>>> concerns me is the accelerating diminution of those who are sufficiently
>>>> competent in Biblical Greek or Hebrew to challenge the validity of what
>>>> the predigested scholarship provides the end-user. My question is a
>>>> version of Juvenal's "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who will take
>>>> care of the caretakers?) -- It seems to me that the opening up of the
>>>> Biblical text to the educated laity in the Renaissance and Reformation
>>>> is, in a sense, being reversed. The custody of the text of scripture is
>>>> being entrusted to a new kind of technological clerical hierarchy.
>>>>
>>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list