[B-Greek] Rev 1:10
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 24 23:30:50 EDT 2010
While it is by a different author and may therefore express an different viewpoint, it is well to remember Paul's words in 1 Thess 5.2-3
2αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀκριβῶς οἴδατε ὅτι ἡμέρα κυρίου ὡς κλέπτης ἐν νυκτὶ οὕτως ἔρχεται.3ὅταν λέγωσιν·εἰρήνη καὶ ἀσφάλεια, τότε αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλεθρος ὥσπερ ἡ ὠδὶν τῇ ἐν γαστρὶ ἐχούσῃ, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἐκφύγωσιν.
2 AUTOI GAR AKRIBWS OIDATE hOTI hHMERA KURIOU hWS KLEPTHS EN NUKTI hOUTWS ERXETAI. 3 hOTAN LEGWSIN, "EIRHNH KAI ASFALEIA", TOTE AIFNIDIOS AUTOIS EFISTATAI OLEQROS hWSPER hH WDIN THi EN GASTRI EXOUSHi, KAI OU MH EKFUGWSIN.
The significance of this is that Paul presents it as a matter of common knowledge (αὐτοὶ γὰρ ἀκριβῶς οἴδατε AUTOI GAR AKRIBWS OIDATE ...). It is less likely therefore to be something which would be a matter of difference between the two authors. This entails the "Day of the Lord" in the eschatological sense and presents a totally different picture from that of Re 1.10.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
________________________________
From: Vasileios Tsialas <tsialas78 at hotmail.com>
To: gfsomsel at yahoo.com; ekbaker at essex1.com; B-Greek Lists <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 11:16:54 AM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10
Since all the letters of Ignatius mentioning Κυριακήhave problems of authorship, they cannot be safely used as a contemporary context of the book of Revelation. Actually problems of authorship mean problems of dating. Of course, it seems that in the first half of the second century, the first day of the week begun to have a special significance in Christian worship, but, as far as I remember, there is not a single indication of such a custom among the 1st century Christians. On the contrary, I would say that Paul’s general admonition of no having special days of worship, according to the Jewish customs, would indicate the opposite (Gal 4:10). Of course, analyzing the historical context of the Christian worship and customs is in a way a matter of interpretation, or even speculation.
But let’s say that Κυριακήημέραcould mean both, the first day of the week or the eschatological day of the Lord. Are there any linguistic clues that could help us?
I think, and I would appreciate everyone’s opinion on that, that the verb εγενόμηνoffers a clue. Thetextsays: «Εγενόμην εν τη νήσω τη καλουμένη Πάτμο […] εγενόμην εν πνεύματι εν τη Κυριακή ημέρα». If εγενόμηνmeans “was (present) in the island of Patmos”, in the first clause, I find it most possible to mean exactly the same at the second clause: “I was (present) in the Lord’s day by means of spirit”.
Vasileios Tsialas
Athens, Greece
> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 06:54:04 -0700
> From: gfsomsel at yahoo.com
> To: apviper at gmail.com
> CC: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10
>
> I think Ignatius is rather clear in his use of the term κυριακὴν KURIAKHN when he explicates it as ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἡμῶν ἀνέτειλεν διʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ EN hHi KAI hH ZWH hHMWN ANETEILEN DI' AUTOU KAI TOU QANATOU AUTOU. He contrasts this with σαββατίζοντες SABBATIZONTES which makes it rather apparent that he is viewing it as a specific day and not an eschatological event.
>
> Εἰ οὖν οἱ ἐν παλαιοῖς πράγμασιν ἀναστραφέντες εἰς καινότητα ἐλπίδος ἦλθον, μηκέτι σαββατίζοντες ἀλλὰ κατὰ κυριακὴν ζῶντες, ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἡμῶν ἀνέτειλεν διʼ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ, <ὅν>τινες ἀρνοῦνται, διʼ οὗ μυστηρίου ἐλάβομεν τὸ πιστεύειν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὑπομένομεν, ἵνα εὑρεθῶμεν μαθηταὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ μόνου διδασκάλου ἡμῶν·
>
> EI OUN HOI EN PALAIOIS PRAGMASIN ANASTRAFENTES EIS KANOTHTA ELPIDOS HLQON, MHKETI SABBATIZONTES ALLA KATA KURIAKHN ZWNTES, EN hHi KAI hH ZWH hHMWN ANETEILEN DI' AUTOU KAI TOU QANATOU AUTOU, <hON> TINES ARNOUNTAI, DI' hOU MUSTHRIOU ELABOMEN TO PISTEUEIN, KAI DIA TOUTO hUPOMENOMEN, hINA HEUREQEMEN MAQHTAI IHSOU XRISTOU TOU MONOU DIDASKALOU hHMWN.
>
> Holmes, M. W. (1999). The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English translations (Updated ed.) (154). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Alex Poulos <apviper at gmail.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Gene Baker <ekbaker at essex1.com>; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 6:17:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10
>
> I think the question is the question here is does the phrase refer to the eschatological Day of the Lord, or to Sunday. The phrase is certainly used for Sunday in the papyri (If I'm reading BDAG correctly), and it does cite Rev 1:10 as referring to Sunday. I'm quite happy to take that as the base meaning, though apocalyptic language is slippery and considering the nature of the book, I wouldn't be surprised if the eschaton was in view with this phrase (I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't).
>
> Alex Poulos
> Senior - Computer Science
> NC State University
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:13 AM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἤκουσα ὀπίσω μου φωνὴν μεγάλην ὡς σάλπιγγος
> >EGENOMHN EN PNEUMATI EN THi KURIAKHi hHMERAi KAI HKOUSA OPISW MOU FWNHN MEGALHN hWS SALPIGGOS
> >
> >I'm having some difficulty understanding what you consider the problem to be here. Would you like 6 doughnuts or half a dozen? My best guess is that you are referring to the LXX use of the phrase in Amos 5.18 and 20. If so, it hardly seems credible that this could be the reference in Re 1.10 since Amos references the eschatological "Day of the Lord", i.e. according to Amos the day when God comes in judgement (Amos 5.20 οὐχὶ σκότος ἡ ἡμέρα τοῦ κυρίου καὶ οὐ φῶς; OUXI SKOTOS hH hHMERA TOU KURIOU KAI OU FWS?). One other interpretation of EN THi KURIAKHi hHMERAi which I have encountered is that of Seventh Day Adventists that it references Easter. I have no intention of discussing that since it is clearly beyond the list protocol though I will say that it makes more sense than to take it as the eschatological Day of the Lord.
> >
> > george
> >gfsomsel
> >
> >
> >… search for truth, hear truth,
> >learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> >defend the truth till death.
> >
> >
> >- Jan Hus
> >_________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> >From: Gene Baker <ekbaker at essex1.com>
> >To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Sent: Wed, June 23, 2010 7:34:16 PM
> >Subject: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10
> >
> >
> >I am having a discussion with another person about the meaning of THi
> >KURIAKHi hHMERAi in Rev. 1:10. He is taking that phrase as equivalent to
> >THi hHMERAi TOU KURIOU. BAG says that the phrase refers to the Lord's Day,
> >that is the first day of the week. My discussion partner say simply that
> >BAG has it wrong. Does anyone know if THi KURIAKHi hHMERAi is used as the
> >equivalent of THi hHMERAi TOU KURIOU? If BAG has it wrong, so do Alford and
> >Moffatt.
> >
> >
> >
> > TIA
> >
> >
> >
> > Gene Baker
> >
> > Sterling, IL
> >
> >---
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