[B-Greek] Rev 1:10

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sat Jun 26 18:13:54 EDT 2010


Vasileios quoted the Expositor’s Bible Commentary:

<Some feel that John was
transported into the future day of the Lord, the prophetic day of God's great
judgment and the return of Christ (E. W. Bullinger, The Apocalypse, 2d
ed. [London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1909], p. 152). The major objection to
this is that John does not use the common expression for the eschatological
"day of the Lord" (hemera kyriou).>

Hi, Vasileios,

My response to this, as someone who believes the verse refers to the future
day of the Lord and not Sunday, is to suggest that John chose the phrase
precisely to distinguish it from the traditional hHMERA KURIOU.
The OT and the NT Eschatological Days are similar but different, and so a 
similar but different phrase makes sense.  New skins for new wine. 

 Mark L 



FWSFOROS MARKOS 




________________________________
From: Vasileios Tsialas <tsialas78 at hotmail.com>
To: iver_larsen at sil.org; B-Greek Lists <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sat, June 26, 2010 12:37:45 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10




> From: iver_larsen at sil.org
> To: tsialas78 at hotmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10
> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:47:37 +0200
> 

> 
> The problem with your analysis is that you do not connect the parts correctly. 
> EGENOMHN must be construed with EN PNEUMATI to give EGENOMHN EN PNEUMATI as we 
> have it in Rev 4:2, and this expression means that he came under the power of 
> the Spirit. The following prepositional phrase gives the time of this event, 
> namely EN KURIAKHi hHMERAi = on the Lord's day. All translations agree on this, 
> and there is no good reason to doubt that they are correct.
> 
> Iver Larsen 
> 



> From: iver_larsen at sil.org

> To: tsialas78 at hotmail.com;
b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org

> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev 1:10

> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:47:37 +0200

> 



> 

> The problem with your analysis is that you do
not connect the parts correctly. 

> EGENOMHN must be construed with EN PNEUMATI
to give EGENOMHN EN PNEUMATI as we 

> have it in Rev 4:2, and this expression means
that he came under the power of 

> the Spirit. The following prepositional
phrase gives the time of this event, 

> namely EN KURIAKHi hHMERAi = on the Lord's
day. All translations agree on this, 

> and there is no good reason to doubt that
they are correct.

> 

> Iver Larsen 

> 



Dear Iver,


I agree that Rev 4:2 is a strong
indication for the meaning of εγενόμην εν πνεύματι in 1:10. But I think you are wrong to definitely exclude the
linguistic possibility of an alternative understanding of the construction of
the sentence and of the meaning of εγενόμην. Rev 4:2 is just the one side of the case. The other
is the two following cases:



Rev 17:3 καὶ
ἀπήνεγκέν με εἰς ἔρημον ἐν πνεύματι.


Rev 21:10  καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπὶ ὄρος μέγα καὶ
ὑψηλόν



Here we have the adverbial phrase εν πνεύματι at the end and at the middle of the
clauses, which explains how John was transferred to some places. He was
spiritually (or by means of the holy spirit) transferred to a place.

The same can occur in Re 1:10.


If γίγνομαι + time can mean the one’s being
present in a specific time (BDAG, meaning 8 of γίγνομαι), and εν πνεύματι explains how this could be done,
then the alternative understanding is linguistically possible and was supported
by E.W. Bullinger in his commentary on Revelation. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/bullinger/apocalypse.iv.html)


If the vast
majority of translators or commentators reject this alternative understanding,
they do not do this on grounds of grammar but because of their position as to
the meaning of κυριακή ημέρα.


They say that κυριακή
ημέρα is nowhere else in NT used for the eschatological ημέρα Κυρίου. But this argument can be reversed, since nowhere
else, as well, κυριακή ημέρα is used for what is repeatedly called in NT πρώτη σαββάτου or μία σαββάτου, that is, the first day of week. (Mat 28:1· Mar 16:2,
9· Ac 20:7· 1Co 16:2) It is noteworthy that, among such uses, there are two in
the Gospel of John, which is commonly held to be chronologically the last text
of the NT.—John 20:1, 19.


Hence, the Expositor’s Bible Commentary admits as
regards κυριακή ημέρα: “Since
this is the only place in the NT where this expression is used, its
identification is difficult.” 


And it goes on
saying:


“Paul uses kyriake as an adjective in 1
Corinthians 11:20 in reference to the
"Lord's supper" (kyriakon deipnon). Some feel that John was
transported into the future day of the Lord, the prophetic day of God's great
judgment and the return of Christ (E. W. Bullinger, The Apocalypse, 2d
ed. [London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1909], p. 152). The major objection to
this is that John does not use the common expression for the eschatological
"day of the Lord" (hemera kyriou). Others find a reference
here to Easter Sunday and base it on the tradition reported in Jerome's commentary
on Matthew 24, that Christ would return on Easter Eve (Friedrich Bleek, Lectures
on the Apocalypse, ed. and trans. L.T. Hossbach and S. Davidson [London:
Williams & Norgate, 1875], p. 156).  ”More
recently a convincing attempt has been made to link the literary form of
Revelation with the paschal (Easter) liturgy of the ancient church (Massey H.
Shepherd, Jr., The Paschal Liturgy and the Apocalypse [Richmond: John
Knox, 1960]). Most commentators, both ancient and modern, have, however, taken
the expression to mean Sunday, the first day of the week (W. Stott, "A
Note on kyriake in Rev
1:10," NTS, 12 [1965], 70-75). This usage
occurs early in the apostolic fathers (Didache 14; Ignatius To the
Magnesians 9). Tendencies toward recognizing Sunday as a day designated by
Christ to celebrate his redemption occur even in the earlier parts of the NT (Acts 20:7; 1Cor
16:2). Such a reference would bind the exiled
apostle to the worshiping churches in Asia through his longing to be with them
on Sunday. It is not impossible, however, that the day referred to here was an
Easter Sunday.”—On CD, V. 2,8 (2001).



So, we have, not
two, but three proposals of κυριακή ημέρα! And the proposal for its being the first day of the
week is based on the testimony of Ignatius and Didache. Yet, both texts are
controversial as of their origin and dating and it would be not unreasonable for
them to be dated circa 150 C.E.—M.W. Holmes, The Apostolic Fathers, Baker Academic, 2007 (3rd ed.), p. 171-173,
335-338.


That being the
case, it rests on the researcher’s judgment to conclude what κυριακή ημέρα means—it is rather a historical, or even theological,
matter than linguistic.



Vasileios
Tsialas


Athens
Greece                         
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Ισχυρό, δωρεάν email με ασφάλεια από τη Microsoft.
https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



      


More information about the B-Greek mailing list