[B-Greek] Matthew 1:20

Michael Aubrey mga318 at yahoo.com
Sun Nov 28 19:28:56 EST 2010


If an adjective is functioning a the clause level and not the phrase level as it 
is here, then in as much as the verb is the head of the clause, the adjective is 
dependent on the verb.

Mike




________________________________
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>; Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; 
Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' 
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 4:24:06 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20


I think we have some confusion here.  The word ἁγίου is an adjective.  One 
does not normally expect an adjective to modify a verb -- not even a copulative 
verb (perhaps a couple of exceptions in neut).  

 
 
Matthew 1:20 (NA27) 
20ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος κυρίου κατʼ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων· 
Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαυίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκά σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ 
γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου. 

 
It seems to me that this is a simple case of a pred adj.  I will demonstrate my 
understanding by putting dashes between words which function as a conceptual 
unit.
 
"The-begotten-in-her-by-the-Spirit is holy."

 george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
 From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev 
<dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 5:02:42 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20

No, because then hAGION is not modifying GENNHQEN. Its then modifying ESTIN.

From memory, I had reconstructed the texts wrong in my head.

Hypothetically, if GENNHQEN, PNEUMATOS, and hAGION were all the same 
case/gender/number in the same structure, hAGION cannot be viewed as modifying 
GENNHQEN.

And next time, I will look directly at the text instead of speaking from memory.

Mike




________________________________
From: Mark Lightman  <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; 
Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:54:49 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20


Fair enough, Mike, but are you saying that if the text DID say

τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἅγιον (hAGION)

in the sense of "the thing born of the Spirit in you is holy,"  that that would 
not be permissible Greek for some reason?





Mark L



FWSFOROS  MARKOS




________________________________
From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev 
<dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 4:46:01 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20


You are indeed correct. I didn't actually look at the verse. My own comments 
were from memory from studying discontinuous constituents.

Mike




________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; 
Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:22:03 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew  1:20


ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ' ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων, 
Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαυίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκά σου, τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ 
γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου: 


TO  GAR EN AUTHi GENNHQEN EK PNEUMATOW ESTIN hAGIOU.

Unless I am missing something, the form in the verse is hAGIOU, not hAGION, and 
for that reason must go with the genitive PNEUMATOS and not the nominative TO 
GENNHQEN.

I don't see any variants with hAGION. 




Mark L



FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
To: Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' 
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:37:55 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20

hAGION cannot modify GENNHQEN because of the intervening preposition. While 
discontinuous  phrases are allow in Greek, there are strict limits on the form 
they take. In the case of prepositional phrases, you are only going to find two 
patterns:

Preposition -> Adjective -> X -> Noun
Preposition -> Noun -> X -> Adjective 

Discontinuous constituency like this arises with the author/speaker viewed the 
first part of the discontinuity as particularly important or relevant to the 
message.

The only occasions where a word that is functionally in a prepositional phrase 
can appear before the preposition are in Poetry, though even then, I can only 
say that for Classical poetry. I haven't looked at Hellenistic poetry. Also, in 
Homeric Greek, there is significantly more freedom in the placement of 
prepositions, but such phenomena are not relevant to what we're seeing here.

If you're  willing to push through some rather technical discussion, I've done 
some writing on  the subject of discontinuous phrases in Greek, specifically 
looking at the Hellenistic period:

http://evepheso.wordpress.com/studies-in-greek-syntax/

Mike Aubrey
http://evepheso.wordpress.com


________________________________
From: Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>
To: Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 2:18:49 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] Matthew  1:20

Does hAGION refer to the Spirit OR the begotten, since both are neuter singular?
If  it refers to the Spirit, please explain why and are there other example by 
Matthew
where hAGION and pneumatos are separated by a verb (ex. estin). Thanks.

Dony K. Donev
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