[B-Greek] Matthew 1:20

yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Sun Nov 28 19:39:46 EST 2010


No, if you keep the word order and don't add it the information in the case to the English pony translation, it does not illustrate your point. hHAGIOU is not a simple predicate adjective, rather, it is part of the adverbial construction EK PNEUMATOS ... hAGIOU. It is an "adjective" and it is in the predicate, but not properly a "predicate adjective." The placement the verb ESTIN may serve to emphasize the element hAGIOU, because it breaks up the normal word order. The verb is not necessary.

Yancy Smith, PhD
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
Y.W.Smith at tcu.edu
yancy at wbtc.com
5636 Wedgworth Road
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565






On Nov 28, 2010, at 6:24 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

> I think we have some confusion here.  The word ἁγίου is an adjective.  One 
> does not normally expect an adjective to modify a verb -- not even a copulative 
> verb (perhaps a couple of exceptions in neut).  
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew 1:20 (NA27) 
> 20ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος κυρίου κατʼ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων· 
> Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαυίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκά σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ 
> γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου. 
> 
>  
> It seems to me that this is a simple case of a pred adj.  I will demonstrate my 
> understanding by putting dashes between words which function as a conceptual 
> unit.
>  
> "The-begotten-in-her-by-the-Spirit is holy."
> 
>  george
> gfsomsel 
> 
> 
> … search for truth, hear truth, 
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
> defend the truth till death.
> 
> 
> - Jan Hus
> _________ 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev 
> <dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 5:02:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20
> 
> No, because then hAGION is not modifying GENNHQEN. Its then modifying ESTIN.
> 
> From memory, I had reconstructed the texts wrong in my head.
> 
> Hypothetically, if GENNHQEN, PNEUMATOS, and hAGION were all the same 
> case/gender/number in the same structure, hAGION cannot be viewed as modifying 
> GENNHQEN.
> 
> And next time, I will look directly at the text instead of speaking from memory.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; 
> Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:54:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20
> 
> 
> Fair enough, Mike, but are you saying that if the text DID say
> 
> τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἅγιον (hAGION)
> 
> in the sense of "the thing born of the Spirit in you is holy,"  that that would 
> not be permissible Greek for some reason?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
> To: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev 
> <dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 4:46:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20
> 
> 
> You are indeed correct. I didn't actually look at the verse. My own comments 
> were from memory from studying discontinuous constituents.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> To: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>; Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; 
> Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:22:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew  1:20
> 
> 
> ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ' ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων, 
> Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαυίδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκά σου, τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ 
> γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου: 
> 
> 
> TO GAR EN AUTHi GENNHQEN EK PNEUMATOW ESTIN hAGIOU.
> 
> Unless I am missing something, the form in the verse is hAGIOU, not hAGION, and 
> for that reason must go with the genitive PNEUMATOS and not the nominative TO 
> GENNHQEN.
> 
> I don't see any variants with hAGION. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark L
> 
> 
> 
> FWSFOROS MARKOS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Michael Aubrey <mga318 at yahoo.com>
> To: Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>; Biblical Greek' 
> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 3:37:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 1:20
> 
> hAGION cannot modify GENNHQEN because of the intervening preposition. While 
> discontinuous phrases are allow in Greek, there are strict limits on the form 
> they take. In the case of prepositional phrases, you are only going to find two 
> patterns:
> 
> Preposition -> Adjective -> X -> Noun
> Preposition -> Noun -> X -> Adjective 
> 
> Discontinuous constituency like this arises with the author/speaker viewed the 
> first part of the discontinuity as particularly important or relevant to the 
> message.
> 
> The only occasions where a word that is functionally in a prepositional phrase 
> can appear before the preposition are in Poetry, though even then, I can only 
> say that for Classical poetry. I haven't looked at Hellenistic poetry. Also, in 
> Homeric Greek, there is significantly more freedom in the placement of 
> prepositions, but such phenomena are not relevant to what we're seeing here.
> 
> If you're  willing to push through some rather technical discussion, I've done 
> some writing on the subject of discontinuous phrases in Greek, specifically 
> looking at the Hellenistic period:
> 
> http://evepheso.wordpress.com/studies-in-greek-syntax/
> 
> Mike Aubrey
> http://evepheso.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Dony K. Donev <dony at cupandcross.com>
> To: Biblical Greek' <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 2:18:49 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Matthew  1:20
> 
> Does hAGION refer to the Spirit OR the begotten, since both are neuter singular?
> If  it refers to the Spirit, please explain why and are there other example by 
> Matthew
> where hAGION and pneumatos are separated by a verb (ex. estin). Thanks.
> 
> Dony K. Donev
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
> 
>       
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
>       
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek




More information about the B-Greek mailing list