[B-Greek] The last Trump
Timothy Lawson
tslawson1 at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 3 12:17:40 EDT 2010
With that kind encouragement from Mark, I'll ask a question.
How might ANASTHSONTAI be rendered/understood?
Inasmuch as the verb is in the middle voice and indicates a possible
participation in the action, it is difficult to imagine how the "dead" can
participate in their own "resurrection" if it is to be rendered as
"resurrected".
The dead will "rise" seems to be active in voice though it may be that the verb
is considered deponent.
However, if the idea is that they are roused from a sleeping condition (as is
indicated at 1Thess.4:15) then participation could be envisioned, such as occurs
at Acts 14:7 where Peter is "roused" and told to "stand up." In that text both
forms of the word for rise/resurrection are used. Can "ANASTHSONTAI" encompass
the idea of being "roused" from sleep with participation implied or would that
be reading more into the verb than is there?
"Scotty"
Timothy Scott Lawson
________________________________
From: Mark Lightman <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
To: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>; Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>;
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 8:07:32 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The last Trump
Hi Timothy,
As someone who also has over twenty years of experience being wrong about Greek,
let me say that I think you have given Mike both a response and an answer, and
both KALA.
επαινω το σον. ευ γ' εποιησας. (EPAINW TO SON. EU G' EPOIHSAS.)
The sense of the tense of αλλαγησομεθα (1 Cor. 15:51) was, I think, well
captured by Lincoln in another context: "...shall be then, thenceforward, and
forever, free."
p.s. I always have an idiot (me) as a teacher.
Mark L
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________
From: Timothy Lawson <tslawson1 at yahoo.com>
To: Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sun, October 3, 2010 8:34:00 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The last Trump
Mike,
Your question is a bit vague but I will happy to respond. You may not get an
answer but at least you'll have a response.
At 1 Cor. 15:51 nothing is mentioned about the sounding of the trumpet, but the
"change" is mentioned (ALLAGHSOMEQA) which Paul evidently sees as yet in his
future - thus it is future in tense. The future tense in Greek seems to be one
of the instances that time is actually grammaticalized rather than just
indicating aspect or aktionsart. It is also passive in voice which indicates
that the action of "being changed" comes from outside - a theological passive if
you like. It is also in indicative in mood which indicates that the writer views
the event as factual/true. However, a good liar would also use the indicative
and so that you don't misunderstand me I'll state that I don't view Paul as a
liar.
Now in verse 52 the last trumpet is mentioned. It, of course, is a noun in the
dative case - dative of accompaniment. The verse goes on to explain that the
trumpet will sound – SALPISEI – which is future/indicative/active and that the
dead will be raised up – EGERQHSONTAI – which is future/indicative/passive.
At 1 Thess. 4:16 God’s trumpet is mentioned which is similarly in the dative of
accompaniment. The dead in Christ will be raised up/be roused from sleep –
ANASTHSONTAI - future/indicative/middle.
However, be warned that for more than twenty years I have been auto-didactically
trained in biblical Greek and therefore I have had an idiot (idiwths Acts 4:13,
1Cor.14:24)) for a teacher.
My definition of “experience” is doing something the wrong way for twenty years
and getting away with it.
“Don’t tell me how to do it right! I’ve done it this way twenty years and gotten
away with it! I have experience!”
Mike, I take a special delight in end- times prophecy and would enjoy a dialog
with you on the subject – off list of course!
To All: If I have made any obvious mistakes please point them out.
"Scotty"
Timothy Scott Lawson
________________________________
From: Mike Burke <michaelgburk at yahoo.com>
To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sat, October 2, 2010 12:51:34 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] The last Trump
What are the verb tenses used in 1 Cor. 15:51 and Thes. 4:16 (in regards to the
sounding of the trumpet, and the rising of the dead in Christ)?
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