[B-Greek] John 11:24
Mike Burke
michaelgburk at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 29 12:30:50 EDT 2010
>>>>I get the impression that in
this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find himself
in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as "even
if he should die"<<<<
Thank you Kevin.
But it would seem odd to go on to say "he who believes in me and lives shall never die," after having just said "even if he should die."
What I was told concerning "though he were dead" being a "present counterfactual condition (even if he were dead (which he is not)," seems to me to be based on a doctrinal or philosophical presupposition.
Perhaps the premise that the dead are unable to believe in Christ (or unable to believe in anything, if they're unconscious.)
I understand that doctrinal issues are out of bounds here, and I would like to return to the translation issue.
.
What I would like to know is if the verse could be translated more or less as it is in the King James (he who believes in me, though dead will live; and if living will never die)?
--- On Fri, 10/29/10, Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au> wrote:
From: Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 12:30 AM
I think there are a few places that are misunderstood precisely because
we don't understand the usage. I am not an expert, but just from
reading early modern texts I get the impression that they are using
these forms differently to current usage. I get the impression that in
this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find himself
in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as "even
if he should die". Perhaps it is just our lack of ease with the
subjunctive in this case. Surely someone has written a grammar of early
modern English? Of course, the problem with early modern English is the
same as with Koiné Greek - the period is one of flux between middle
English and modern English, and it is at times impossible to tell
whether a writer is using words with old meanings or new.
Kevin Riley
On 29/10/2010 10:22 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:48 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>> Yes, I did mean John 11:25, and that is how it's translated in the A.V., isn't it?
>>
>> It does say "though he were dead, yet shall he live," doesn't it?
>>
>> Were the King James translators serious, or were they guilty of an obvious "mistranslation" here?
> It does read that way, to be sure. I've never felt comfortable enough with Elizabethan English usage of modals
> to judge that usage. All I can say is that it's pretty far removed from the English of the last couple centuries.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> --- On Thu, 10/28/10, Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
>> To: "Mike Burke"<michaelgburk at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:31 PM
>>
>>
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>> Would a more acurate translation of John 11:24 be "though he were dead, yet shall he live," or "though he may die, yet shall he live"?
>> I suspect you mean John 11:25, the clause, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται, [hO PISTEUWN EIS EME KAN APOQANHi ZHSETAI.
>>
>> "though he were dead ... " = "even if he were dead" -- Are you seriously suggesting that? That's a present counterfactual condition ("even if he were dead (which he is not), ..."
>>
>> The Greek text is what's called a future more vivid condition. KAN APOQANHi indicates the possitibility that the believer may at some time die; so, it should be something like, "Even if he does die (ever), he will live."
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
>
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