[B-Greek] John 11:24
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Oct 29 15:36:03 EDT 2010
On Oct 29, 2010, at 12:30 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>>>> I get the impression that in
> this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find himself
> in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as "even
> if he should die"<<<<
>
> Thank you Kevin.
>
> But it would seem odd to go on to say "he who believes in me and lives shall never die," after having just said "even if he should die."
>
> What I was told concerning "though he were dead" being a "present counterfactual condition (even if he were dead (which he is not)," seems to me to be based on a doctrinal or philosophical presupposition.
>
> Perhaps the premise that the dead are unable to believe in Christ (or unable to believe in anything, if they're unconscious.)
>
> I understand that doctrinal issues are out of bounds here, and I would like to return to the translation issue.
> .
> What I would like to know is if the verse could be translated more or less as it is in the King James (he who believes in me, though dead will live; and if living will never die)?
I am sorry that what I wrote has been interpreted to mean something other than what I meant when I wrote it. So let me try to be as clear as I know how to be:
(1) Yes, it is true that doctrinal issues are out of bounds here. For my part, I never had any intention of raising a doctrinal issue.
(2) When I wrote of ""though he were dead ... " that this is equivalent to "even if he were dead," I really had no notion that this was the KJV rendering of the text in John 11:25, ... KAN APOQANHi ... What was running through my mind is that "though he were dead" is certainly not the English of our present era and that, supposing we rephrased it as "... even if he were dead ... ", this is the phrasing of the protasis of a present contrary-to fact condition, such a protasis expressing a hypothetical condition that one knows does not reflect what is true: e.g. "if he were dead, we could not be talking with him," or "if he were living and were present in our midst, we would be able to ask him directly." But in Greek that sort of conditional construction would involve a protasis with an imperfect indicative and an apodosis (result clause) with an imperfect indicative and AN. Thus:
a. "If he were dead, we could not be talking with him" = EI ETEQNHKEI, OUK AN HDUNAMEQA PROS AUTON DIALEGESQAI (since "be dead" is pf. TEQNHEKENAI, the pluperfect is the comparable tense for the protasis of the conditional construction).
b. "if he were living and were present in our midst, we would be able to ask him directly" = EI EZH KAI PARHN MEQ' hHMWN, HDUNAMEYA EPERWTHSAI AUTON.
(3) I do not believe that any competent translator today would English hO PISTEUWN EIS EME KAN APOQANHi ZHSETAI as the KJV translators have done. KAN APOQANHi does not mean "if he were dead" but rather "even if he dies [at some time hereafter]." There is no way to get from the Greek text of John 11:24 as we have it to the possibility that one might be dead and believe while dead. Rather, the Greek text contemplates the possibility that someone who now believes may at some future time die -- and the Greek text affirms that even if that should happen, the person in question will rise to new life.
I make no pretense of explaining what the KJV translators intended by the manner of their conversion of the Greek text into English. My comments focused strictly on how the Greek text itself is to be understood and what its potential implications might possibly be in terms of the Greek grammatical usage.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> --- On Fri, 10/29/10, Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> From: Kevin Riley <klriley at alphalink.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Friday, October 29, 2010, 12:30 AM
>
>
> I think there are a few places that are misunderstood precisely because
> we don't understand the usage. I am not an expert, but just from
> reading early modern texts I get the impression that they are using
> these forms differently to current usage. I get the impression that in
> this case the meaning is something like "even if he should find himself
> in the state of being dead", which we would want to 'translate' as "even
> if he should die". Perhaps it is just our lack of ease with the
> subjunctive in this case. Surely someone has written a grammar of early
> modern English? Of course, the problem with early modern English is the
> same as with Koiné Greek - the period is one of flux between middle
> English and modern English, and it is at times impossible to tell
> whether a writer is using words with old meanings or new.
>
> Kevin Riley
>
> On 29/10/2010 10:22 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:48 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>> Yes, I did mean John 11:25, and that is how it's translated in the A.V., isn't it?
>>>
>>> It does say "though he were dead, yet shall he live," doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Were the King James translators serious, or were they guilty of an obvious "mistranslation" here?
>> It does read that way, to be sure. I've never felt comfortable enough with Elizabethan English usage of modals
>> to judge that usage. All I can say is that it's pretty far removed from the English of the last couple centuries.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>> --- On Thu, 10/28/10, Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Carl Conrad<cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 11:24
>>> To: "Mike Burke"<michaelgburk at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Date: Thursday, October 28, 2010, 10:31 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 28, 2010, at 6:15 PM, Mike Burke wrote:
>>>> Would a more acurate translation of John 11:24 be "though he were dead, yet shall he live," or "though he may die, yet shall he live"?
>>> I suspect you mean John 11:25, the clause, ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ κἂν ἀποθάνῃ ζήσεται, [hO PISTEUWN EIS EME KAN APOQANHi ZHSETAI.
>>>
>>> "though he were dead ... " = "even if he were dead" -- Are you seriously suggesting that? That's a present counterfactual condition ("even if he were dead (which he is not), ..."
>>>
>>> The Greek text is what's called a future more vivid condition. KAN APOQANHi indicates the possitibility that the believer may at some time die; so, it should be something like, "Even if he does die (ever), he will live."
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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