[B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Mark Lightman lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Tue Sep 14 21:48:37 EDT 2010


Hi, Dewayne,

I have been a huge fan of the DDV since early September of 2010.  I like what 
you have done with John 16:33a even more than 33b:

<"I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being
united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I
have defeated the world!">

"from being united with" is a lot of English for EN, but  I think you are 
exactly correct; it's all in there, a dative of source with the special 
idiomatic meaning of the Johannine EN as "united with".  The main thing you have 
done is demonstrate that the second EN in 33b is almost certainly not locative, 
because in the Gospel I don't think there is ever a notion of the disciples 
leaving the world.  Jesus leaves for a time but he will come back TO the world 
and be the final source of peace, even in the world.  You could even do the same 
thing for 33 be "You will suffer from being united to the world" really means 
something a little different than "you will suffer in the world."

Translation, and translation theories as such, is not really something we talk 
about on this list, but your post does demonstrate that in using the double "in 
me" and "in the world" the major versions may be missing something.

<My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being
united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have
defeated the world!">

Today's Greek Version does something similar with 33b 

Ο κόσμος θα σας κάνει να υποφέρετε.
O KOSMOS QA SAS KANEI NA UPOFERETE
"the world will cause you to suffer"

I would be interested to see if Iver and others accept these two datives as 
datives of source.

ερρωσο, ω φιλε μου.



 Mark L
φωσφορος


FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Dewayne Dulaney <dewayne.dulaney at gmail.com>
To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 6:49:35 PM
Subject: Re: John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Χαῖρε ὦ Μᾶρκε· CAIRE W MARKE!

You wrote,

>ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ θλῖψιν ἔχετε, ἀλλὰ θαρσεῖτε, ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον.
>EN TWi KOSMWi QLIYIN ECETE ALLA QARSEITE EGW NENIKHSA TON KOSMON.

>Virtually every English translation takes the EN KOSMWi in a locative sense 
("in
>the world.")  But the DDV takes it as a dative of instrument, or maybe a dative
>of source:


>"From the world you will have trouble. But, be brave! I have defeated
the world!"
>I always wonder in these cases; can it mean both things at the same time? Would
>the Greeks have recognized the distinction?  Eric Inman recently posted about
>John's idiomatic use of EN.  Is John punning here on the EN EMOI in verse 33?


>P.S. does anyone know when the DDV might be coming out on DDV?

The DDV is my own translation; it presently consists of drafts of full
versions of John, Philippians, Psalm 1, and portions of 1
Thessalonians, Genesis, Leviticus, Ruth, 1 Samuel, and Jeremiah, and
interlinear versions of 1, 2, 3 John. (Among friends I used to
jokingly call it the DSV, or Dulaney Standard Version. :>) The version
of John is the one I mentioned one time when I commented on ΣΧΟΛΗ
(SCOLH).

Now to your question on Jn. 16:33. I think John is definitely
connecting ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ EN TWi KOSMWi with ἐν ἐμοὶ EN EMOI earlier in
the verse, where Jesus said:
ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε
TAUTA LELALHKA hUMIN hINA EN EMOI EIRHNHN ECHTE.

I'll give my translation of the entire verse so you can see the
context, then explain my thinking.

"I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being
united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I
have defeated the world!"

My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being
united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have
defeated the world!"

I consulted the TEV in the United Bible Societies' "A Translator's
Handbook on the Gospel of John" by Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A.
NIda, 1980 ed. The Handbook (which I'll refer to as THJ) takes the
first EN (in EN EMOI) as a dative of means and the second EN (in EN
TWi KOSMWi) as a dative of source. I think this is possible, but it
seems to me that, given the apparent parallelism, both ENs are datives
of source, thus my "...from being united with me. From the world...".

Here are my draft footnotes on the interpretation of the datives.
First, on EN EMOI:

[Note l] Trad., [traditional translation] “in me”. Grk. ἐν ἐμοὶ (en
emoi) is translated “from being united with me” here. It has the same
mng. in 14:10, 11, 20 and 15:4—7 (“joined to me”). It implies
fellowship (THJ, 522). This dative* construction can indicate means
(so THJ) or source here. I think it likely source is indicated. Thus,
Jesus means he is the source of peace.

On EN TWi KOSMWi:

[Note m] Trad., “in the world”, Grk. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (en tōi kosmōi). The
structure of en tōi kosmōi and en emoi are parallel in the Greek, both
indicating source: the world is the source of trouble to believers (so
THJ, 522) while Jesus is the source of peace.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, FOSFOROS, as well as those
of our fellow B-Greekers.

(You also asked when the DDV will be out on DVD. Well, it's not even
ready for print just yet, still working on that. For now I'm getting
the first chapter of John and some accompanying materials [glossary,
abbreviation list, etc.] ready to put on the web for feedback. Maybe
someday there will be a DVD. Doesn't hurt to dream.)

ἔρρωσο· ERRWSO!

Δεβένιος Δυλένιος DEBENIOS DULENIOS





-- 
"From the world you will have trouble. But, be brave! I have defeated
the world!"—John 16:33, DDV (Dewayne Dulaney Version)

My Bible blogs: http://my.opera.com/Loquor/blog/ and
http://hasopher.preachersfiles.com/



      


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