[B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Eric Inman eric-inman at comcast.net
Tue Sep 14 22:17:21 EDT 2010


Hi Dewayne and Mark,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but might have some tweaks or clarifications.

In EN EMOI EIRHNHN EXETE I would not say that Jesus is the source of peace but rather that the state of being in fellowship with Jesus is the source of peace. Likewise in EN TWi KOSMOi QLIYIN EXETE it is not the world that is the source of trouble but rather the state of being in fellowship with the world. Thus EN specifies location (of the heart, and hence with whom one has fellowship) and "x EXETE" specifies a result of (the heart) being in that location, or of that state of fellowship.

Therefore the only possible translation is "Hang with me and it's cool. Hang with the world and it's a drag." :)

Eric 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Mark Lightman
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:49 PM
To: Dewayne Dulaney; b-greek
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Hi, Dewayne,

I have been a huge fan of the DDV since early September of 2010.  I like what you have done with John 16:33a even more than 33b:

<"I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I have defeated the world!">

"from being united with" is a lot of English for EN, but  I think you are exactly correct; it's all in there, a dative of source with the special idiomatic meaning of the Johannine EN as "united with".  The main thing you have done is demonstrate that the second EN in 33b is almost certainly not locative, because in the Gospel I don't think there is ever a notion of the disciples leaving the world.  Jesus leaves for a time but he will come back TO the world and be the final source of peace, even in the world.  You could even do the same thing for 33 be "You will suffer from being united to the world" really means something a little different than "you will suffer in the world."

Translation, and translation theories as such, is not really something we talk about on this list, but your post does demonstrate that in using the double "in me" and "in the world" the major versions may be missing something.

<My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world!">

Today's Greek Version does something similar with 33b 

Ο κόσμος θα σας κάνει να υποφέρετε.
O KOSMOS QA SAS KANEI NA UPOFERETE
"the world will cause you to suffer"

I would be interested to see if Iver and others accept these two datives as datives of source.

ερρωσο, ω φιλε μου.



 Mark L
φωσφορος


FWSFOROS MARKOS




________________________________
From: Dewayne Dulaney <dewayne.dulaney at gmail.com>
To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 6:49:35 PM
Subject: Re: John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Χαῖρε ὦ Μᾶρκε· CAIRE W MARKE!

You wrote,

>ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ θλῖψιν ἔχετε, ἀλλὰ θαρσεῖτε, ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον.
>EN TWi KOSMWi QLIYIN ECETE ALLA QARSEITE EGW NENIKHSA TON KOSMON.

>Virtually every English translation takes the EN KOSMWi in a locative 
>sense
("in
>the world.")  But the DDV takes it as a dative of instrument, or maybe 
>a dative of source:


>"From the world you will have trouble. But, be brave! I have defeated
the world!"
>I always wonder in these cases; can it mean both things at the same 
>time? Would the Greeks have recognized the distinction?  Eric Inman 
>recently posted about John's idiomatic use of EN.  Is John punning here on the EN EMOI in verse 33?


>P.S. does anyone know when the DDV might be coming out on DDV?

The DDV is my own translation; it presently consists of drafts of full versions of John, Philippians, Psalm 1, and portions of 1 Thessalonians, Genesis, Leviticus, Ruth, 1 Samuel, and Jeremiah, and interlinear versions of 1, 2, 3 John. (Among friends I used to jokingly call it the DSV, or Dulaney Standard Version. :>) The version of John is the one I mentioned one time when I commented on ΣΧΟΛΗ (SCOLH).

Now to your question on Jn. 16:33. I think John is definitely connecting ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ EN TWi KOSMWi with ἐν ἐμοὶ EN EMOI earlier in the verse, where Jesus said:
ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε TAUTA LELALHKA hUMIN hINA EN EMOI EIRHNHN ECHTE.

I'll give my translation of the entire verse so you can see the context, then explain my thinking.

"I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I have defeated the world!"

My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world!"

I consulted the TEV in the United Bible Societies' "A Translator's Handbook on the Gospel of John" by Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A.
NIda, 1980 ed. The Handbook (which I'll refer to as THJ) takes the first EN (in EN EMOI) as a dative of means and the second EN (in EN TWi KOSMWi) as a dative of source. I think this is possible, but it seems to me that, given the apparent parallelism, both ENs are datives of source, thus my "...from being united with me. From the world...".

Here are my draft footnotes on the interpretation of the datives.
First, on EN EMOI:

[Note l] Trad., [traditional translation] “in me”. Grk. ἐν ἐμοὶ (en
emoi) is translated “from being united with me” here. It has the same mng. in 14:10, 11, 20 and 15:4—7 (“joined to me”). It implies fellowship (THJ, 522). This dative* construction can indicate means (so THJ) or source here. I think it likely source is indicated. Thus, Jesus means he is the source of peace.

On EN TWi KOSMWi:

[Note m] Trad., “in the world”, Grk. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (en tōi kosmōi). The structure of en tōi kosmōi and en emoi are parallel in the Greek, both indicating source: the world is the source of trouble to believers (so THJ, 522) while Jesus is the source of peace.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, FOSFOROS, as well as those of our fellow B-Greekers.

(You also asked when the DDV will be out on DVD. Well, it's not even ready for print just yet, still working on that. For now I'm getting the first chapter of John and some accompanying materials [glossary, abbreviation list, etc.] ready to put on the web for feedback. Maybe someday there will be a DVD. Doesn't hurt to dream.)

ἔρρωσο· ERRWSO!

Δεβένιος Δυλένιος DEBENIOS DULENIOS





--
"From the world you will have trouble. But, be brave! I have defeated the world!"—John 16:33, DDV (Dewayne Dulaney Version)

My Bible blogs: http://my.opera.com/Loquor/blog/ and http://hasopher.preachersfiles.com/



      
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