[B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Barry H. nebarry at verizon.net
Tue Sep 14 22:46:00 EDT 2010


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dewayne Dulaney" <dewayne.dulaney at gmail.com>
To: "b-greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental 
EN?


I'm having a lot of trouble with this.  Nota infra, passim:

> Now to your question on Jn. 16:33. I think John is definitely
> connecting ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ EN TWi KOSMWi with ἐν ἐμοὶ EN EMOI earlier in
> the verse, where Jesus said:
> ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε
> TAUTA LELALHKA hUMIN hINA EN EMOI EIRHNHN ECHTE.

> I'll give my translation of the entire verse so you can see the
> context, then explain my thinking.

> "I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being
> united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I
> have defeated the world!"

> My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
> 1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
> reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being
> united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have
> defeated the world!"

> I consulted the TEV in the United Bible Societies' "A Translator's
> Handbook on the Gospel of John" by Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A.
> NIda, 1980 ed. The Handbook (which I'll refer to as THJ) takes the
> first EN (in EN EMOI) as a dative of means and the second EN (in EN
> TWi KOSMWi) as a dative of source. I think this is possible, but it
> seems to me that, given the apparent parallelism, both ENs are datives
> of source, thus my "...from being united with me. From the world...".

Ok, here's my first problem with this.  Since 1977 (when I started taking 
Greek), I have never heard of a dative of source.  So when you guys started 
talking about it, I wondered "What have I missed?" and so started looking. 
For grammars I checked Smyth, Goodwin, Robertson BDF, Zerwick, Dana and 
Mantey, Brooks & Winbery (hi, Carlton!), Chamberlain, and that famous 
multiplier of grammatical categories, Wallace.  No mention of a dative of 
source.  Then, being the rather brilliant sort that I am, it occurred to me 
to check ἐν, EN, and so LSJ, BAGD, L&N, Friberg, and even Thayer.  No 
mention of a dative of source under EN.

<RANT MODE>

1) I hate reading grammars.  They give me a headache.  So now I'm really 
annoyed at you for making me do so.

2) I hate the so-called 8 case system.  Maximally unhelpful, especially to 
students.  It should be relagated to the ash heap of history along with 
8-track players and Bozo the Clown.  Apologies (insincere) to any adherents 
on this list (maybe Carlton?  Hi, Carlton, how ya doin'?).

</RANT MODE>

So, besides apparently THJ, who talks about a dative of source?  It sure 
hasn't occured to a bunch of the major reference writers.

> Here are my draft footnotes on the interpretation of the datives.
> First, on EN EMOI:
>
> [Note l] Trad., [traditional translation] “in me”. Grk. ἐν ἐμοὶ (en
> emoi) is translated “from being united with me” here. It has the same
> mng. in 14:10, 11, 20 and 15:4—7 (“joined to me”). It implies
> fellowship (THJ, 522). This dative* construction can indicate means
> (so THJ) or source here. I think it likely source is indicated. Thus,
> Jesus means he is the source of peace.
>
> On EN TWi KOSMWi:
>
> [Note m] Trad., “in the world”, Grk. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (en tōi kosmōi). The
> structure of en tōi kosmōi and en emoi are parallel in the Greek, both
> indicating source: the world is the source of trouble to believers (so
> THJ, 522) while Jesus is the source of peace.

> I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, FOSFOROS, as well as those
> of our fellow B-Greekers.

 Well, even though the phrases are parallel, you still make a distinction in 
meaning, "from being united with me" vs. "from the world."  If the phrases 
are parallel and both indicate source, why not translate them in such a way 
as to highlight even better that parallism?

However, I don't think they are parallel in meaning, and the structural 
parallel strikes me as a rhetorical device to contrast the difference of 
being EN EMOI vs. EN TWi KOSMWi.  In this case the object of the preposition 
changes the meaning/usage of the preposition.  EN EMOI, I think, means in 
relationship to Christ, or united to Christ, spiritually and all that.  EN 
TWi KOSMWI means related to the world, living one's existence in the world, 
materially, as one's primary sphere of operation.

Now, can we get source out of this?  I don't think you can get if from the 
syntax of the preposition.  Sure, Christ is a source of peace and the world 
is a source of trouble, but that is an implication of EN EMOI  and EN TWi 
KOSMWi.  The dative here with the preposition EN doesn't in and of itself 
mean that.  What I think you have done is assigned a contextual implication 
as a grammatical category.

As to your translation, the English prepositional phrases to me imply cause 
or instrument, answering the question of why or how the disciples will have 
peace or trouble.


N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...
Classics and Bible Instructor, TAA
http://www.theamericanacademy.net
(2010 Savatori Excellence in Education Winner)
V-P of Academic Affairs, TNARS
bhofstetter at tnars.net
http://www.tnars.net

http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry





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