[B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Sep 15 05:31:03 EDT 2010


My reply in this instance is at the bottom of the thread.

On Sep 14, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Barry H. wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewayne Dulaney" <dewayne.dulaney at gmail.com>
> To: "b-greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; <lightmanmark at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 16:33b EN TWi KOSMWi Locative or instrumental EN?
> 
> 
> I'm having a lot of trouble with this.  Nota infra, passim:
> 
>> Now to your question on Jn. 16:33. I think John is definitely
>> connecting ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ EN TWi KOSMWi with ἐν ἐμοὶ EN EMOI earlier in
>> the verse, where Jesus said:
>> ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε
>> TAUTA LELALHKA hUMIN hINA EN EMOI EIRHNHN ECHTE.
> 
>> I'll give my translation of the entire verse so you can see the
>> context, then explain my thinking.
> 
>> "I have told you these things so that you may have peace from being
>> united with me. From the world you will have trouble. But be brave! I
>> have defeated the world!"
> 
>> My wording is adapted from the text in Today's English Version (TEV),
>> 1976 ed., the precursor to the Contemporary English Version (CEV). TEV
>> reads: "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being
>> united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have
>> defeated the world!"
> 
>> I consulted the TEV in the United Bible Societies' "A Translator's
>> Handbook on the Gospel of John" by Barclay M. Newman and Eugene A.
>> NIda, 1980 ed. The Handbook (which I'll refer to as THJ) takes the
>> first EN (in EN EMOI) as a dative of means and the second EN (in EN
>> TWi KOSMWi) as a dative of source. I think this is possible, but it
>> seems to me that, given the apparent parallelism, both ENs are datives
>> of source, thus my "...from being united with me. From the world...".
> 
> Ok, here's my first problem with this.  Since 1977 (when I started taking Greek), I have never heard of a dative of source.  So when you guys started talking about it, I wondered "What have I missed?" and so started looking. For grammars I checked Smyth, Goodwin, Robertson BDF, Zerwick, Dana and Mantey, Brooks & Winbery (hi, Carlton!), Chamberlain, and that famous multiplier of grammatical categories, Wallace.  No mention of a dative of source.  Then, being the rather brilliant sort that I am, it occurred to me to check ἐν, EN, and so LSJ, BAGD, L&N, Friberg, and even Thayer.  No mention of a dative of source under EN.
> 
> <RANT MODE>
> 
> 1) I hate reading grammars.  They give me a headache.  So now I'm really annoyed at you for making me do so.
> 
> 2) I hate the so-called 8 case system.  Maximally unhelpful, especially to students.  It should be relagated to the ash heap of history along with 8-track players and Bozo the Clown.  Apologies (insincere) to any adherents on this list (maybe Carlton?  Hi, Carlton, how ya doin'?).
> 
> </RANT MODE>
> 
> So, besides apparently THJ, who talks about a dative of source?  It sure hasn't occured to a bunch of the major reference writers.
> 
>> Here are my draft footnotes on the interpretation of the datives.
>> First, on EN EMOI:
>> 
>> [Note l] Trad., [traditional translation] “in me”. Grk. ἐν ἐμοὶ (en
>> emoi) is translated “from being united with me” here. It has the same
>> mng. in 14:10, 11, 20 and 15:4—7 (“joined to me”). It implies
>> fellowship (THJ, 522). This dative* construction can indicate means
>> (so THJ) or source here. I think it likely source is indicated. Thus,
>> Jesus means he is the source of peace.
>> 
>> On EN TWi KOSMWi:
>> 
>> [Note m] Trad., “in the world”, Grk. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ (en tōi kosmōi). The
>> structure of en tōi kosmōi and en emoi are parallel in the Greek, both
>> indicating source: the world is the source of trouble to believers (so
>> THJ, 522) while Jesus is the source of peace.
> 
>> I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, FOSFOROS, as well as those
>> of our fellow B-Greekers.
> 
> Well, even though the phrases are parallel, you still make a distinction in meaning, "from being united with me" vs. "from the world."  If the phrases are parallel and both indicate source, why not translate them in such a way as to highlight even better that parallism?
> 
> However, I don't think they are parallel in meaning, and the structural parallel strikes me as a rhetorical device to contrast the difference of being EN EMOI vs. EN TWi KOSMWi.  In this case the object of the preposition changes the meaning/usage of the preposition.  EN EMOI, I think, means in relationship to Christ, or united to Christ, spiritually and all that.  EN TWi KOSMWI means related to the world, living one's existence in the world, materially, as one's primary sphere of operation.
> 
> Now, can we get source out of this?  I don't think you can get if from the syntax of the preposition.  Sure, Christ is a source of peace and the world is a source of trouble, but that is an implication of EN EMOI  and EN TWi KOSMWi.  The dative here with the preposition EN doesn't in and of itself mean that.  What I think you have done is assigned a contextual implication as a grammatical category.
> 
> As to your translation, the English prepositional phrases to me imply cause or instrument, answering the question of why or how the disciples will have peace or trouble.
> 
> 
> N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...

It seems to me that this endeavor at categorization of the usage of EN in John 16:33b is futile if not fruitless, outwallacing Wallace in that it is not content with establishment of a category "Aporetic Dative" to accompany the "aporetic genitive" and "aporetic nominative" case designations. We do speak sometimes of an "epexegetical infinitive" that "explains" the applicability of an adjective; here we might speak of an "exegetical dative": a dative case form derived from a puzzling exegesis of passage wherein this particular case-usage is unlike any other ever seen. One thing we do know is that instrumental usage of the dative with EN seems to have expanded in the Hellenistic era; we've had several discussions, as I recall, of EN used with PNEUMATI.

To get back to the text:
John 16:33 ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ εἰρήνην ἔχητε. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ θλῖψιν ἔχετε· ἀλλὰ θαρσεῖτε, ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον. 
John 16:33 TAUTA LELALHKA hUMIN hINA EN EMOI EIRHNHN ECHTE. EN TWi KOSMWi QLIYIN ECETE· ALLA QARSEITE, EGW NENIKHKA TON KOSMON.

I don't really see any great difficulty with EN TWi KOSMWi and EN EMOI: "I've discussed these matters with you so that you can be at peace when your engaged/involved with me; what you have when you are engaged/involved with humanity at large, you suffer Angst; but take heart: I've gotten the better of humanity at large." In these terms, it seems to me that there's really no difficulty in discerning in the dative usage of EN KOSMWi and EN EMOI a not uncommon Hellenistic conflation of locative and instrumental notions. And I really don't believe that I'm saying anything new or different in this analysis.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)






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