[B-Greek] EPHESIANS 4:11 - four groups or five?

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 24 10:45:08 EDT 2010


It's always hazardous to be too overly exact in interpreting what anyone says 
since we don't tend to speak absolutely precisely (some more, some less).  The 
fact that we have a μεν MEN .. δε DE construction which is then concluded by και 
KAI would seem to imply that the item joined by the και KAI is to be considered 
a unit with what has preceded.   One of the commentators I tend to trust more 
than some is B. F. Westcott who states in regard to this 


  
τοὺς μέν ...] Someof those whom He had taken and fashioned for His service as 
apostles, and some, as prophets ….
The three groups ‘apostles,’ ‘prophets,’ ‘evangelists,’ represent ministers who 
had a charge not confined to any particular congregation or district. In 
contrast with these are those who form the settled ministry, ‘pastors and 
teachers,’ who are reckoned as one class not from a necessary combination of the 
two functions but from their connexion with a congregation.
 
Saint Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians: The Greek text with notes and addenda. 
1909 (B. F. Westcott, bp. of Durham & J. M. Schulhof, [from old catalog, Ed.) 
(62). London; New York: Macmillan and co., limited; The Macmillan company.
 
While I obviously would tend to agree with him, I would hesitate to adamantly 
maintain that position.  How often do we hear statements such as "not to 
mention" followed precisely by a mention of that which was supposedly not to be 
mentioned and other similar usages?  Language is a funny thing.
 
george
gfsomsel 


… search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________ 




________________________________
From: Blue Meeksbay <bluemeeksbay at yahoo.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 7:19:04 AM
Subject: [B-Greek] EPHESIANS 4:11 - four groups or five?

EPHESIANS 4:11 KAI AUTOS EDWKEN TOUS MEN APOSTOLOUS, TOUS DE PROFHTAS, TOUS DE 
EUAGGELISTAS, TOUS DE POIMENAS KAI DIDASKALOUS
 
I really couldn’t find much on this in the archives, but are there any new 
thoughts on whether the writer of Ephesians is referring to five groups of 
individuals as opposed to four groups of individuals?
 
I certainly concede that the phrase TOUS DE POIMENAS KAI DIDASKALOUS is being 
set apart from the rest, but this appears to just indicate that these two groups 

of individuals are being considered distinct by the writer, (in some way), but 
not that he is delineating a single group of individuals called Pastor Teachers. 


 
If that was the thought he was trying to communicate, would it not have been 
easier to leave out the conjunction and simply put DIDASKALOUS in apposition to 
POIMENAS?
 
Sincerely,
Blue Harris


      
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