[B-Greek] Double article
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Feb 22 09:18:28 EST 2011
On Feb 22, 2011, at 7:22 AM, susan at read-the-bible.org wrote:
> Hi Joe - sorry you found the response to "read more" flippant or a
> put-down. Normally the list responds quite kindly to really basic Greek
> grammar questions like this one.
>
> Do you have a basic and/or intermediate biblical Greek grammar book?
> Any such book will do for a start -- look up articles. Greek doesn't
> handle articles the same way English does, and the rules can get pretty
> complicated if you want to sort out particular patterns using grammar
> rules. It's probably easier in the long run to just read a lot of
> biblical Greek, and you'll soon get the hang of it. Often there's no
> apparent reason for one sentence having an article and another not
> having one (although I bet some on this list will have rules to cover
> everything).
>
> For example, many beginning Greek classes use John's gospel as a text --
> take a look at the first couple of chapters -- right in the first two
> verse are three occurrences of QEON, two with an article and one
> without.
>
> As for "Why is the article not taken seriously here?" I believe it's
> because in general this is a quite common construction, with all sorts
> of nouns besides UIOS and ANQRWPOS.
>
> I hope I got the transliteration right. I've been lurking for over a
> decade and still hardly ever post.
I really just want to say "Amen" to what Susan has said here; anything
more I have to say is chiefly by way of underlining what she has said --
and maybe put a different slant on what George has said.
The Greek article really does function quite differently from the
English article -- it is omitted often enough where English seems to
require it and it appears often enough where English would omit it --
e.g. with proper names (we don't go around talking about "the George"
or "the Susan" -- and when people talk about "the Donald," they are
well aware that it's not an ordinary English usage. And there are
instances where Greek may use the article but doesn't require it.
It really is rather difficult to get a "handle" on the usage of the Greek
article.
And frankly, I don't think that reading through standard grammars --
even the best of them -- suffices to prepare a reader of ancient
Greek to recognize and anticipate when the article will and when it
won't be used in the texts one reads. What DOES suffice, I think,
is "further reading" -- by which I don't mean "a few more pages"
but tens or hundreds of pages -- voluminous reading. I also think
that it's better to be reading without pondering as one goes just
how this would be rendered in English: how to translate a Greek
text into English is altogether secondary to reading a Greek text
in order to understand it. The focus on conversion of Greek texts
into English or another target language is probably the bane of
Biblical Greek pedagogy.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>> From: "Joe Ripley" <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>> Date: Tue, February 22, 2011 4:09 am
>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>
>>
>> Instead of "standard way to state such in Greek" would it not be more accurate to say that it is the standard way to translate this into English?
>>
>> on the web I found this:
>> In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, the term "the son of man" is invariably "ὁ υἱὸς τοὺ ἀνθρώπου", which might be rendered more literally "the son of the human being"; however, due to conventions of interpreting the definite article in Greek, "the son of man" most scholars believe is a better translation.
>>
>> Only Jesus and Stephen use the article for MAN. I have not been able to find any case of this in the LXX or in the rest of the NT. Why is the article not taken seriously here?
>>
>> As for the "read more and you'll see" putdown - read what and where are my response?
>>
>> Joe Ripley
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: George F Somsel
>> To: Joe Ripley ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>
>>
>> I think you're trying to rely on your English language experience too much. This is a standard way to state such in Greek. Read more and you'll see.
>>
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Joe Ripley <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 5:14:22 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Double article
>>
>> Dear List - Does anyone have any thoughts about the use of the double article in hO hUIOS TOU ANQRWPOU which Jesus used of himself many times? He even asked the newly healed man who had been born blind, if he knew who "The son of the man is". Stephen used it too when he saw Jesus at the right side of God.
>> In Daniel 7, Revelation 14 and Ezekiel 37 no definite article is used for "son of man".
>> Could it be some Jewish 'code speak' for Messiah, "The man" being perhaps understood to be David or maybe Adam?
>>
>> Joe Ripley
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