[B-Greek] The BANE of Biblical Greek Pedagogy
Alastair Haines
afhaines at tpg.com.au
Wed Feb 23 01:18:52 EST 2011
C. Conrad wrote, "The focus on conversion of Greek texts into English or
another target language is probably the bane of Biblical Greek pedagogy."
"Hear hear!" says I also.
Not only of Biblical Greek, but other languages also, I would add.
English second language teaching has helped me learn something about how
others learn languages.
Students want to get *past* the translation reflex.
Can we help one another to do that with Biblical Greek?
I wonder ...
alastair
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul D. Nitz" <paul.d.nitz at gmail.com>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 4:51 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] The BANE of Biblical Greek Pedagogy
> C. Conrad wrote, "The focus on conversion of Greek texts into English or
> another target language is probably the bane of Biblical Greek pedagogy."
>
> Amen.
>
> Now, how does one go about teaching Greek and avoiding that pitfall?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> To: <susan at read-the-bible.org>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>
>
>>
>> On Feb 22, 2011, at 7:22 AM, susan at read-the-bible.org wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Joe - sorry you found the response to "read more" flippant or a
>>> put-down. Normally the list responds quite kindly to really basic Greek
>>> grammar questions like this one.
>>>
>>> Do you have a basic and/or intermediate biblical Greek grammar book?
>>> Any such book will do for a start -- look up articles. Greek doesn't
>>> handle articles the same way English does, and the rules can get pretty
>>> complicated if you want to sort out particular patterns using grammar
>>> rules. It's probably easier in the long run to just read a lot of
>>> biblical Greek, and you'll soon get the hang of it. Often there's no
>>> apparent reason for one sentence having an article and another not
>>> having one (although I bet some on this list will have rules to cover
>>> everything).
>>>
>>> For example, many beginning Greek classes use John's gospel as a text --
>>> take a look at the first couple of chapters -- right in the first two
>>> verse are three occurrences of QEON, two with an article and one
>>> without.
>>>
>>> As for "Why is the article not taken seriously here?" I believe it's
>>> because in general this is a quite common construction, with all sorts
>>> of nouns besides UIOS and ANQRWPOS.
>>>
>>> I hope I got the transliteration right. I've been lurking for over a
>>> decade and still hardly ever post.
>>
>> I really just want to say "Amen" to what Susan has said here; anything
>> more I have to say is chiefly by way of underlining what she has said --
>> and maybe put a different slant on what George has said.
>>
>> The Greek article really does function quite differently from the
>> English article -- it is omitted often enough where English seems to
>> require it and it appears often enough where English would omit it --
>> e.g. with proper names (we don't go around talking about "the George"
>> or "the Susan" -- and when people talk about "the Donald," they are
>> well aware that it's not an ordinary English usage. And there are
>> instances where Greek may use the article but doesn't require it.
>> It really is rather difficult to get a "handle" on the usage of the Greek
>> article.
>>
>> And frankly, I don't think that reading through standard grammars --
>> even the best of them -- suffices to prepare a reader of ancient
>> Greek to recognize and anticipate when the article will and when it
>> won't be used in the texts one reads. What DOES suffice, I think,
>> is "further reading" -- by which I don't mean "a few more pages"
>> but tens or hundreds of pages -- voluminous reading. I also think
>> that it's better to be reading without pondering as one goes just
>> how this would be rendered in English: how to translate a Greek
>> text into English is altogether secondary to reading a Greek text
>> in order to understand it. The focus on conversion of Greek texts
>> into English or another target language is probably the bane of
>> Biblical Greek pedagogy.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>> From: "Joe Ripley" <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>>>> Date: Tue, February 22, 2011 4:09 am
>>>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Instead of "standard way to state such in Greek" would it not be more
>>>> accurate to say that it is the standard way to translate this into
>>>> English?
>>>>
>>>> on the web I found this:
>>>> In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, the term "the son of man" is
>>>> invariably "ὁ υἱὸς τοὺ ἀνθρώπου", which might be rendered more
>>>> literally
>>>> "the son of the human being"; however, due to conventions of
>>>> interpreting the definite article in Greek, "the son of man" most
>>>> scholars believe is a better translation.
>>>>
>>>> Only Jesus and Stephen use the article for MAN. I have not been able
>>>> to
>>>> find any case of this in the LXX or in the rest of the NT. Why is the
>>>> article not taken seriously here?
>>>>
>>>> As for the "read more and you'll see" putdown - read what and where are
>>>> my response?
>>>>
>>>> Joe Ripley
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: George F Somsel
>>>> To: Joe Ripley ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:48 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think you're trying to rely on your English language experience too
>>>> much. This is a standard way to state such in Greek. Read more and
>>>> you'll see.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> george
>>>> gfsomsel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - Jan Hus
>>>> _________
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: Joe Ripley <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 5:14:22 PM
>>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>>
>>>> Dear List - Does anyone have any thoughts about the use of the double
>>>> article in hO hUIOS TOU ANQRWPOU which Jesus used of himself many
>>>> times?
>>>> He even asked the newly healed man who had been born blind, if he knew
>>>> who "The son of the man is". Stephen used it too when he saw Jesus at
>>>> the right side of God.
>>>> In Daniel 7, Revelation 14 and Ezekiel 37 no definite article is used
>>>> for "son of man".
>>>> Could it be some Jewish 'code speak' for Messiah, "The man" being
>>>> perhaps understood to be David or maybe Adam?
>>>>
>>>> Joe Ripley
>>
>>
>>
>>
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