[B-Greek] The BANE of Biblical Greek Pedagogy
Paul D. Nitz
paul.d.nitz at gmail.com
Wed Feb 23 01:27:31 EST 2011
Alastair,
My thoughts exactly, as you'll see in my nearly identical post.
Has anyone else read Hale's old essay on teaching Latin? I've wondered if
his approach might work. Details and my own précis on the essay are below:
The Art of Reading Latin: How to Teach It
William Gardner Hale, professor of Latin in Cornell University
Boston: Ginn & Co., 1887
file:///C:/Users/Paul/Desktop/GREEK%20PRIMERS/The%20Art%20of%20Reading%20Latin.htm
WG Hale encourages that the student suspend interpretation until a sentence
is complete. With first year university students (prep school boys who have
had some years of Latin) he would take a couple sentences of an authentic
ancient Latin text and read it orally. He establishes a pattern of walking
through the sentences word by word, considering all possibilities for each
word and suspending conclusions until the full thought is complete. He
discourages hunting and pecking for predicate, subject, main verb, etc. He
required memorization and recitation of short texts. He would orally ask
students to generate correct forms. E.g.
"How, in Latin, can you present to my mind a queen as acting upon somebody?"
By saying regina. "How a girl as being acted upon?" By saying puellam.
"How a clerk?" By saying scribam. "How a letter?" By saying epistulam.
"Now put before me a queen as acting, and a girl as being acted upon."
Regina puellam. "
With these and other strategies, he said that students were able to "read"
the Latin and enjoy it as literature, rather than painstakingly rearranging
the Latin according to English thought.
PD Nitz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alastair Haines" <afhaines at tpg.com.au>
To: "Paul D. Nitz" <paul.d.nitz at gmail.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] The BANE of Biblical Greek Pedagogy
> C. Conrad wrote, "The focus on conversion of Greek texts into English or
> another target language is probably the bane of Biblical Greek pedagogy."
>
> "Hear hear!" says I also.
>
> Not only of Biblical Greek, but other languages also, I would add.
> English second language teaching has helped me learn something about how
> others learn languages.
> Students want to get *past* the translation reflex.
> Can we help one another to do that with Biblical Greek?
> I wonder ...
>
> alastair
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul D. Nitz" <paul.d.nitz at gmail.com>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 4:51 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] The BANE of Biblical Greek Pedagogy
>
>
>> C. Conrad wrote, "The focus on conversion of Greek texts into English or
>> another target language is probably the bane of Biblical Greek pedagogy."
>>
>> Amen.
>>
>> Now, how does one go about teaching Greek and avoiding that pitfall?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Carl Conrad" <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
>> To: <susan at read-the-bible.org>
>> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 22, 2011, at 7:22 AM, susan at read-the-bible.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Joe - sorry you found the response to "read more" flippant or a
>>>> put-down. Normally the list responds quite kindly to really basic Greek
>>>> grammar questions like this one.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a basic and/or intermediate biblical Greek grammar book?
>>>> Any such book will do for a start -- look up articles. Greek doesn't
>>>> handle articles the same way English does, and the rules can get pretty
>>>> complicated if you want to sort out particular patterns using grammar
>>>> rules. It's probably easier in the long run to just read a lot of
>>>> biblical Greek, and you'll soon get the hang of it. Often there's no
>>>> apparent reason for one sentence having an article and another not
>>>> having one (although I bet some on this list will have rules to cover
>>>> everything).
>>>>
>>>> For example, many beginning Greek classes use John's gospel as a
>>>> text --
>>>> take a look at the first couple of chapters -- right in the first two
>>>> verse are three occurrences of QEON, two with an article and one
>>>> without.
>>>>
>>>> As for "Why is the article not taken seriously here?" I believe it's
>>>> because in general this is a quite common construction, with all sorts
>>>> of nouns besides UIOS and ANQRWPOS.
>>>>
>>>> I hope I got the transliteration right. I've been lurking for over a
>>>> decade and still hardly ever post.
>>>
>>> I really just want to say "Amen" to what Susan has said here; anything
>>> more I have to say is chiefly by way of underlining what she has said --
>>> and maybe put a different slant on what George has said.
>>>
>>> The Greek article really does function quite differently from the
>>> English article -- it is omitted often enough where English seems to
>>> require it and it appears often enough where English would omit it --
>>> e.g. with proper names (we don't go around talking about "the George"
>>> or "the Susan" -- and when people talk about "the Donald," they are
>>> well aware that it's not an ordinary English usage. And there are
>>> instances where Greek may use the article but doesn't require it.
>>> It really is rather difficult to get a "handle" on the usage of the
>>> Greek
>>> article.
>>>
>>> And frankly, I don't think that reading through standard grammars --
>>> even the best of them -- suffices to prepare a reader of ancient
>>> Greek to recognize and anticipate when the article will and when it
>>> won't be used in the texts one reads. What DOES suffice, I think,
>>> is "further reading" -- by which I don't mean "a few more pages"
>>> but tens or hundreds of pages -- voluminous reading. I also think
>>> that it's better to be reading without pondering as one goes just
>>> how this would be rendered in English: how to translate a Greek
>>> text into English is altogether secondary to reading a Greek text
>>> in order to understand it. The focus on conversion of Greek texts
>>> into English or another target language is probably the bane of
>>> Biblical Greek pedagogy.
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>>> From: "Joe Ripley" <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>>>>> Date: Tue, February 22, 2011 4:09 am
>>>>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead of "standard way to state such in Greek" would it not be more
>>>>> accurate to say that it is the standard way to translate this into
>>>>> English?
>>>>>
>>>>> on the web I found this:
>>>>> In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, the term "the son of man" is
>>>>> invariably "ὁ υἱὸς τοὺ ἀνθρώπου", which might be rendered more
>>>>> literally
>>>>> "the son of the human being"; however, due to conventions of
>>>>> interpreting the definite article in Greek, "the son of man" most
>>>>> scholars believe is a better translation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only Jesus and Stephen use the article for MAN. I have not been able
>>>>> to
>>>>> find any case of this in the LXX or in the rest of the NT. Why is the
>>>>> article not taken seriously here?
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the "read more and you'll see" putdown - read what and where
>>>>> are
>>>>> my response?
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe Ripley
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: George F Somsel
>>>>> To: Joe Ripley ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:48 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you're trying to rely on your English language experience too
>>>>> much. This is a standard way to state such in Greek. Read more and
>>>>> you'll see.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> george
>>>>> gfsomsel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Jan Hus
>>>>> _________
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: Joe Ripley <joseph.ripley at ntlworld.com>
>>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 5:14:22 PM
>>>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Double article
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear List - Does anyone have any thoughts about the use of the double
>>>>> article in hO hUIOS TOU ANQRWPOU which Jesus used of himself many
>>>>> times?
>>>>> He even asked the newly healed man who had been born blind, if he knew
>>>>> who "The son of the man is". Stephen used it too when he saw Jesus at
>>>>> the right side of God.
>>>>> In Daniel 7, Revelation 14 and Ezekiel 37 no definite article is used
>>>>> for "son of man".
>>>>> Could it be some Jewish 'code speak' for Messiah, "The man" being
>>>>> perhaps understood to be David or maybe Adam?
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe Ripley
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list