[B-Greek] Luke 11:7 from within esothen

Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Jan 4 01:18:41 EST 2011


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg Marquez" <marquezgoyo at gmail.com>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>; "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Sent: 4. januar 2011 00:02
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 11:7 from within esothen


>I agree that the context is the issue. I'm suggesting that the context  choice 
>is between:
> The man inside shouted at his friend to go away, or
> The man inside thought, I should tell my friend to go away.

I would say none of the above.  To "think" or "say to oneself" can be expressed 
as George said with EN hEAUTWi (Luke 7:39; 16:3, 18:4). It is also possible to 
"say in your heart", but that is more Hebrew than Greek (Rom 10:6; Rev 18:7). 
While ESWQEN can refer to the inside of a person or internally as in Mark 
7:21,23, Luke 11:39, 2 Cor 7:5, I do not see evidence that ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS 
EIPHi can possibly mean "having answered and said inside himself". The person 
inside responded to the person outside without shouting - as that would wake up 
the children.  That makes perfect sense in context. It is understandable that 
this friend was reluctant to get up at midnight to find bread and in the process 
disturb his wife and maybe the children. Well, he might not do it because of 
friendship and normal social obligation, but he may well do it if the other 
person persists in asking. I can see nothing strained about repeating the 
request, although ANAIDEIA does not mean repetition, but "lack of proper 
restraint or consideration, intemperateness" (LSJ).

See also BDAG: "lack of sensitivity to what is proper, carelessness about the 
good opinion of others, shamelessness, impertinence, impudence, ignoring of 
convention (a fundamental cultural consideration in the Gr-Rom. world, here with 
focus on tradition of hospitality) Lk 11:8, either of the one who is doing the 
calling out (simply εἴπον vs. 5) to his friend within, in which case the 
‘shamelessness’ consists in disturbing the peace at an inappropriate hour - 
shameless disturbance (ἀ. itself does not mean ‘persistence’, of which the text 
make no explicit mention; but many translations draw semantic support from the 
explanation) - or ..."

Iver Larsen

>
> I think the second fits the point of the story better particularly  since it 
> avoids the strained interpretations of anaideia as involving  some kind of 
> repetitiveness. If the man merely thought it then there  is little basis for 
> assuming some kind of repetitive asking on the  part of the friend who needed 
> bread.
>
> Greg Marquez
> MarquezGoyo at gmail.com
> www.ivChristianCenter.com
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2011, at 11:38 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> κἀκεῖνος ἔσωθεν ἀποκριθεὶς εἴπῃ·  μή μοι κόπους πάρεχε· ἤδη ἡ θύρα 
>> κέκλεισται καὶ τὰ παιδία μου μετʼ  ἐμοῦ εἰς τὴν κοίτην εἰσίν· οὐ  δύναμαι 
>> ἀναστὰς δοῦναί σοι.
>>
>> KAKEINOS ESWQEN APOKRIQEIS EIPHi, "MH MOI KOPOUS PAREXE; HDH hH QURA 
>> KEKLEISTAI KAI TA PAIDIA MOU MET' EMOU EIS THN KOITHN EISIN; OU  DUNAMAI 
>> ANASTAS DOUNAI SOI."
>>
>> As I've said on more than one occassion, "Context is king."  While I  suppose 
>> ἔσωθεν ESWQEN might be used for "to himself", I don't  think that likely. 
>> Cf. Lk 11.39, but even there it seems that the  comparison is to the inside 
>> of a cup as opposed to the outside.  In  Lk 7.39 when it definitely refers to 
>> one's "conversing" with himself  it uses ἐν ἑαυτῷ EN hEAUTWi.
>>
>> Now, for the context:
>>
>> Notice that the one man is inside while we still need to determine  where the 
>> other might be (though the suspicion is that he would be  outside since the 
>> householder says "My chilren are in bed together  with me."  Does he mean 
>> they are all in one bed?  Doubtful.  He  probably simply means "We've all 
>> gone to bed."  Then note that he  also says "The door is locked."  This would 
>> be of little  significance if he had opened the door and let his neighbor in. 
>> The  picture we have then is that the householder is inside speaking to  his 
>> neighbor who is outside and not simply talking to himself.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel




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